No, my intention is not to embarrass our brave men and women fighting in Afghanistan and in armed flight over Afghanistan. Or even to question them. They are battling against enemies of civilization and of civilized life. And they richly merit our moral support.
Yes, the U.S. air force, responding to endangered German ground troops under standing and perfectly reasonable NATO procedures, brought death to literally dozens of Afghanis. Estimates range from 50 to 90. Now, the issue is whether these dead were Taliban or civilians. The fact is that the Taliban do not fight by the rules of modern warfare which try to limit the exposure of non-combatants. The enemy in Afghanistan meshes with old women and men, with children and the infirm... But it is not only the subterfuge. Taliban loyalists, always without uniforms, move in and out of combat roles. You cannot tell whether someone is a regular full-time belligerent or not. Most who are such belligerents also blithely pretend not to be.
The same issue arises with the Goldstone Report on the Gaza war in which Israel is accused of blithely targeting civilians. I know something about the Israeli military and how scrupulously and stringently it inculcates very limiting and self-constraining rules of war. I also know Israeli soldiers who fought in Gaza, a fight forced upon them by the Palestinians sending rockets into towns and kibbutzim of the Negev with increasing frequency but mostly at random. They are not only outraged but deeply offended by a U.N. panel judging them, men and women of the I.D.F., who took enormous risks not to shoot or bomb people who just may have not been combatants. The report is a pastiche built largely on one of the habits of Arab culture: this is actually a culture that lies to itself.
There are even more serious charges in the report and they accuse Israel of targeting hospitals and schools. Now, the fact is that the Israel Defense Forces have themselves investigated these charges and found them to be fictions. Of all the inimical tales that have emerged from a few disenchanted Israeli soldiers, unnamed by the way, not a single one has accused the I.D.F. of making war on hospitals and schools. These accusations come from Gaza which is itself under the ruthless discipline of Hamas.
Actually, the very sponsorship of the Report is suspect. The investigating body operated under the aegis of the United Nations Human Rights Council which spends early all of its time preparing resolutions condemning Israel. The legislation establishing the Goldstone commission was sponsored by Cuba, Egypt (in behalf of the Organization of Arab States) and Pakistan (representing the Islamic Conference). Months before the commission was established one of its not yet appointed members had already decided (and in public) that Israel was guilty of war crimes in Gaza. (The Council has not been able to decide whether Sudan is guilty of war crimes. Or Congo. Or Sri Lanka. Pardon me: but I don't mean to compare Israel to these states.)
Now, back to my first point. Which is the asymmetry that is endemic to the judgments in the international system on first world armies fighting third world terrorists. The tribunals themselves are deeply prejudiced, and even the face of a Jewish jurist from South Africa cannot disguise the intrinsic bias of United Nations institutions against Israel.
That same bias operates against the United States, although the American government seems to have less and less empathy with Israel whose enemies are mostly also enemies of America.
In any case, my analogy between the U.S. and Israel, between Taliban Afghanistan and Hamas Gaza was first made by the eminent (and ironic) Ha'aretz journalist Avi Shavit in Wednesday's paper. Please read it here.
Print
COMMENTS (16)
Obama's administration appears to want that the US rejoin the "civilized" world, and the task of defining "civilized" is being outsourced to the likes of the UNHR commission. We know their record. We know who they are.
Last week, I took my family to a theme park in Upstate NY. I suffer from a very bad case of fear of heights. In an attempt to "cure" myself of this phobia I thought I'd join the rest of my family in a cable ride, an Alpine lift which distance from the ground is not more than a two-storey height, at its steepest. The whole ride takes something like 10 minutes. As soon as it started, I realized it was a big mistake. BIG MISTAKE. But there was nothing I could do about it. I coul ... view full comment
Obama's administration appears to want that the US rejoin the "civilized" world, and the task of defining "civilized" is being outsourced to the likes of the UNHR commission. We know their record. We know who they are.
Last week, I took my family to a theme park in Upstate NY. I suffer from a very bad case of fear of heights. In an attempt to "cure" myself of this phobia I thought I'd join the rest of my family in a cable ride, an Alpine lift which distance from the ground is not more than a two-storey height, at its steepest. The whole ride takes something like 10 minutes. As soon as it started, I realized it was a big mistake. BIG MISTAKE. But there was nothing I could do about it. I couldn't get off. So I hugged the nearest bar, and tried to calm myself until the end of the ride. Needless to say, the 10 minutes seemed like an infinity.
I think the analogy I'm trying to make here is clear. Marty, I think, is beginning to realize just how big a mistake he made in his judgment of Barack Obama's attitude towards Israel. But like me on that alpine lift, he can console himself with the reminder that he himself made that mistake. No one else forced him to support Obama's election. And like me he needs to remember that Obama's administration will be over in 4 or 8 years. We can only hope that in this relatively limited time no irreparable harm will befall Israel as a result of US's acquisition of these new friends.
Martin Peretz writes:
Now, the fact is that the Israel Defense Forces have themselves investigated these charges and found them to be fictions.
I think that is the equivalent of a not guilty plea. A slight rewriting of Peretz's rot shows this more clearly: now, the fact is that the Israel Defense Forces have investigated themselves and found these charges to be fictions.
Not exactly a surprise when written like that.
Martin Peretz writes:
Now, the fact is that the Israel Defense Forces have themselves investigated these charges and found them to be fictions.
I think that is the equivalent of a not guilty plea. A slight rewriting of Peretz's rot shows this more clearly: now, the fact is that the Israel Defense Forces have investigated themselves and found these charges to be fictions.
Not exactly a surprise when written like that.
another Jew hating mackenzie outburst.
Israel has done a better job at investigating transgressions among its soldiers than any Arab country.
Actually it did a better job than Great Britain did in its recent wars in Iraq or Afghanistan or even Northern Ireland.
The Goldstone report is an obscenity sponsored as it was by some of the most corrupt and abusers of human rights in the world.
Moreover, some of the members of the commission had alreayd prejudged Israel's guilty even before they collected all the "evidence."
"UN Human Rights Council Report Distorts Gaza War"
view full comment
another Jew hating mackenzie outburst.
Israel has done a better job at investigating transgressions among its soldiers than any Arab country.
Actually it did a better job than Great Britain did in its recent wars in Iraq or Afghanistan or even Northern Ireland.
The Goldstone report is an obscenity sponsored as it was by some of the most corrupt and abusers of human rights in the world.
Moreover, some of the members of the commission had alreayd prejudged Israel's guilty even before they collected all the "evidence."
"UN Human Rights Council Report Distorts Gaza War"
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/09/15/un-human-rights-council-report-di...
"Israeli who testified to UN commission: Goldstone fell asleep"
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251804579601&pagename=JPost%...
"Noam Bedein, one of six Israeli civilians who testified before the Goldstone Commission probing Operation Cast Lead blasted the investigation's report Tuesday for equating the actions of Israel and Hamas, saying it was "disgusting," Israel Radio reported.
According to the radio station, Bedein said that Goldstone fell asleep when he was ... view full comment
"Israeli who testified to UN commission: Goldstone fell asleep"
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251804579601&pagename=JPost%...
"Noam Bedein, one of six Israeli civilians who testified before the Goldstone Commission probing Operation Cast Lead blasted the investigation's report Tuesday for equating the actions of Israel and Hamas, saying it was "disgusting," Israel Radio reported.
According to the radio station, Bedein said that Goldstone fell asleep when he was shown clips of Sderot children running for their lives after hearing a Color Red rocket warning siren."
MP:
The fact is that the Taliban do not fight by the rules of modern warfare which try to limit the exposure of non-combatants.
george:
Here's what the Taliban should do. They should strike a deal with the coalition forces. If the coalition forces will agree to scale back on military hardware that is at least a thousand times more sophisticated and lethal than the terrorist's arsenal, the Taliban will agree to back off from the civilians.
This is the same bullshit argument that Marty sprinted out to rationalize all the civilians [including hundreds of children] the IDF mowed down in Gaza. We're civilized so any collateral damage we inflict is soley as a result of an enemy that marches its ... view full comment
MP:
The fact is that the Taliban do not fight by the rules of modern warfare which try to limit the exposure of non-combatants.
george:
Here's what the Taliban should do. They should strike a deal with the coalition forces. If the coalition forces will agree to scale back on military hardware that is at least a thousand times more sophisticated and lethal than the terrorist's arsenal, the Taliban will agree to back off from the civilians.
This is the same bullshit argument that Marty sprinted out to rationalize all the civilians [including hundreds of children] the IDF mowed down in Gaza. We're civilized so any collateral damage we inflict is soley as a result of an enemy that marches its civilians out into the minefields and paints targets all over them. Besides, the IDF investigated itself and dropped all the charges. Think the defense department investigating itself [and dropping all the charges] with regard to Abu Ghraib. Just a few low life rotten apples is all.
MartyWorld meets BushWorld.
Now, neither the coalition forces in Afghanistan nor the IDF in Gaza can be reduced down to its worst elements, of course. Especially not all the way down to the fierce gung ho chickenhawk division in BushWorld. Besides, as Osama bin Laden once intimated, the Islamic terrorists are in love with death, not life. So no one is trying to play down either their brutality or their despicable jihad mentality. They TARGET the civilians of their enemy, for christ sakes.
But it's never as simple as the denizens of MartyWorld seek to portray it. And why would it be when so many of the details used to fill in the cracks of their rants are assembled by a factory of Glenn Beck automatons somewhere in Dick Cheney's sweatshop at Fox News.
george walton
Another message from the simple minded looney waltune:
"But it's never as simple as the denizens of MartyWorld seek to portray it.
To the denizens of Waltontown everything is soooooooo complicated that they get tied up in knots trying to unravel the meaning of the simplest message.
Another message from the simple minded looney waltune:
"But it's never as simple as the denizens of MartyWorld seek to portray it.
To the denizens of Waltontown everything is soooooooo complicated that they get tied up in knots trying to unravel the meaning of the simplest message.
"although the American government seems to have less and less empathy with Israel whose enemies are mostly also enemies of America."
Mr Peretz: Is it the "American government" that "seems" to have less and less empathy for Israel, or is it the Obama administration that appears to have no empathy for Israel?
"although the American government seems to have less and less empathy with Israel whose enemies are mostly also enemies of America."
Mr Peretz: Is it the "American government" that "seems" to have less and less empathy for Israel, or is it the Obama administration that appears to have no empathy for Israel?
Here is a conclusive critique of Goldstone's biased report by Richard Landes, a master historian:
"Fisking Goldstone: What’s happened to this man?"
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2009/09/17/fisking-goldstone-whats-happe...
"Goldstone clearly counts on addressing a sympathetic audience ignorant of the facts — a choir. I address those readers of the news who still want to be part of a “reality-based” community, for whom evidence must be addressed, analyzed, and assessed. You make up your mi ... view full comment
Here is a conclusive critique of Goldstone's biased report by Richard Landes, a master historian:
"Fisking Goldstone: What’s happened to this man?"
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2009/09/17/fisking-goldstone-whats-happe...
"Goldstone clearly counts on addressing a sympathetic audience ignorant of the facts — a choir. I address those readers of the news who still want to be part of a “reality-based” community, for whom evidence must be addressed, analyzed, and assessed. You make up your mind if Judge Goldstone is an honest, fair-minded man, or someone who, for whatever mysterious reason, is in thrall to a narrative he must serve, regardless of the evidence."
.
Justice in Gaza
By RICHARD GOLDSTONE
"I ACCEPTED with hesitation my United Nations mandate to investigate alleged violations of the laws of war and international human rights during Israel’s three-week war in Gaza last winter. The issue is deeply charged and politically loaded. I accepted because the mandate of the mission was to look at all parties: Israel; Hamas, which controls Gaza; and other armed Palestinian groups."
Landes replied:
"This is astonishing. Mary Robinson — the presiding genius of Durban I — rejected it because the mandate was only to investigate Israel, tainted from the beginning. Goldstone requested, in vain, that the mandate be widened. For him to pretend that the mandate was to investigate all groups when it never was, whether he threw in some comments on Hamas or not, assumes a pervasive illiteracy among his audience — the readers of the NYT."
Goldstone:
"I accepted because my fellow commissioners are professionals committed to an objective, fact-based investigation."
"The case against the composition of his committee — not one person sympathetic to Israel, at least one, Christine Chinkin, openly hostile — has led two groups of lawyers, in England and in Canada, to demand Chinkin’s disqualification since she had already pronounced herself — long before she saw any real evidence — on Israel’s guilt. Goldstone, even as he tossed out the petition on a subtle technicality, admitted that Chinkin’s case was borderline and the report reconfirms her prejudice. So whence comes this bland denial?"
Read the whole critique:
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2009/09/17/fisking-goldstone-whats-happe...
jd:
Another message from the simple minded looney waltune:
gw:
....as Osama bin Laden once intimated, the Islamic terrorists are in love with death, not life. So no one is trying to play down either their brutality or their despicable jihad mentality. They TARGET the civilians of their enemy, for christ sakes.
Hmm...
Maybe you're right. Maybe that is a rather simple minded, loony bin reflection of the terrorists. Maybe the IDF really is worse than they are.
I'll tell you what. Let ndmac and Marty arm wrestle to decide. I'll stand by the winner's assessment.
But so will you!!!
Or I'll report you to the U.N. General Assembly
gw
jd:
Another message from the simple minded looney waltune:
gw:
....as Osama bin Laden once intimated, the Islamic terrorists are in love with death, not life. So no one is trying to play down either their brutality or their despicable jihad mentality. They TARGET the civilians of their enemy, for christ sakes.
Hmm...
Maybe you're right. Maybe that is a rather simple minded, loony bin reflection of the terrorists. Maybe the IDF really is worse than they are.
I'll tell you what. Let ndmac and Marty arm wrestle to decide. I'll stand by the winner's assessment.
But so will you!!!
Or I'll report you to the U.N. General Assembly
gw
Nothing new here. Just some more simple loonywaltunes.
Nothing new here. Just some more simple loonywaltunes.
Jack just a note to thank you for the link to the Landes critique. It was good and the links in it are invaluable.
I read the 35 pages or so of the report's executive summary--about an hour and more of my life I shall never get back. It is (perhaps must, just really to get a concrete sense of it) dreary reading and maddeningly frustrating, its one sidedness is palpably evident, virtually self evident.
Jack just a note to thank you for the link to the Landes critique. It was good and the links in it are invaluable.
I read the 35 pages or so of the report's executive summary--about an hour and more of my life I shall never get back. It is (perhaps must, just really to get a concrete sense of it) dreary reading and maddeningly frustrating, its one sidedness is palpably evident, virtually self evident.
1 in return: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-la.1.mn_commentary.new...
1 in return: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-la.1.mn_commentary.new...
basman directs our attention to an op-ed regarding the Goldston report in the LA Times. The author's bio at the foot of the article states:
This is first-person propaganda and consequently worthless. It does not even have the benefit of being propaganda filtered through basman's own hand.
basman directs our attention to an op-ed regarding the Goldston report in the LA Times. The author's bio at the foot of the article states:
This is first-person propaganda and consequently worthless. It does not even have the benefit of being propaganda filtered through basman's own hand.
"...Jeremy Sharon is a researcher and writer based in Jerusalem. He has worked at a number of Israeli think tanks and served in the IDF Spokesperson's Unit.(my emphasis)
This is first-person propaganda and consequently worthless. It does not even have the benefit of being propaganda filtered through basman's own hand...."
I was concscious of Sharon's background and was just waiting for some jerk to reject the piece based on entirely on who Sharon is rather than what he says.
And if I was taking money on what jerk would have been the first to do it, just guess who my money would have been on?
"...Jeremy Sharon is a researcher and writer based in Jerusalem. He has worked at a number of Israeli think tanks and served in the IDF Spokesperson's Unit.(my emphasis)
This is first-person propaganda and consequently worthless. It does not even have the benefit of being propaganda filtered through basman's own hand...."
I was concscious of Sharon's background and was just waiting for some jerk to reject the piece based on entirely on who Sharon is rather than what he says.
And if I was taking money on what jerk would have been the first to do it, just guess who my money would have been on?
This is not without interest: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1115659.html
This is not without interest: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1115659.html
From Z-word blog's Eamonn McDonagh:
"When does negligence become recklessness, and when does recklessness slip into wanton callousness, and then into deliberate disregard for innocent human life?
But that is the point - and it should have been the focus of the investigation. Judge Goldstone’s real mandate was, or should have been, to bring Israel to confront this fundamental question, a question inherent in the waging of war by all civilized societies against irregular armed groups. Are widespread civilian casualties inevitable when a modern army pounds terrorist targets in a heavily populated area with purportedly smart ordnance? Are they acceptable? Does the enemy’s deployment in th ... view full comment
From Z-word blog's Eamonn McDonagh:
"When does negligence become recklessness, and when does recklessness slip into wanton callousness, and then into deliberate disregard for innocent human life?
But that is the point - and it should have been the focus of the investigation. Judge Goldstone’s real mandate was, or should have been, to bring Israel to confront this fundamental question, a question inherent in the waging of war by all civilized societies against irregular armed groups. Are widespread civilian casualties inevitable when a modern army pounds terrorist targets in a heavily populated area with purportedly smart ordnance? Are they acceptable? Does the enemy’s deployment in the heart of the civilian area shift the line between right and wrong, in morality and in law?" [-]
For my own part, I’ll add a question as to whether the ridiculousness of the idea that Israel deliberately targeted civilians - as opposed to not having taken adequate care to protect them - has been adequately noted. Even the Palestinian Center for Human Rights only puts the total number of fatal casualties at 1,284. Pretty bad going when we note that the population of Gaza is 1.5 million. Think of how much better those dumb Jews ought to have been able to do when one considers the time and means to do some serious killing that they had at their disposal.
Perhaps simple-minded goyim such as myself strain to appreciate the subtlety of the maneuverings of the Zionists. They killed an infinitesimally smaller number of Palestinians than was within their means to do and needlessly put their own infantry at risk in the process and that only proves that it was their intention to go after civilians all along.
At the rate things are going, the next time the IDF arrest a suspected terrorist on the West Bank without firing a shot or inflicting a scratch on the detainee, the UN, through the mouth of its Falk or Goldstone of the moment will start talking about an attempt at genocide.
There are just so many people who are made so, so unhappy by Jews refusing to take their medicine with resignation, humility and a tug at the forelock. Long may it continue to be so."
http://blog.z-word.com/2009/09/gaza-landau-on-goldstone/