This was the headline in the Jerusalem Post which, one might think, wouldn't be so finicky about the source of the attack on the Moscow-St. Petersburg railway that left at least 26 dead, about 100 wounded and 18 missing, presumed also gone to their maker. This mass homicide was a massacre, and I assume it was carried out by...well, take your choice. (Last week, you'll recall, I anointed Opus Dei as the culprits for an enormity in Afghanistan.) So this time maybe it was Hasidim gone on pilgrimage to the Russian grave of their wonder rabbi or, more likely, some "Jewish settlers" from Gilo on a journey of ideological vengeance. Alright, you see how utterly preposterous this is.
This weekend last year there were somewhere close to 200 murdered in Mumbai and more than 300 maimed and disfigured. The Times and every other "responsible" news source were coy for days about who carried out this atrocity. But you knew and I knew. Their coyness was not responsibility. It was cowardice.
And so in the Philippines over the last days where every conceivable group of villains is Muslim and defines itself as Muslim the press still can barely bring itself to utter the word. One top suspect was even wearing a kaffiyeh. OK, this is surely not evidence. Neither is the fact that most of the dead women had their sexual organs mutilated. Nor the tidbit that perhaps two dozen of the 57 murdered were journalists, as if their killing would obliterate the evidence. But all of this speaks to a wanton disease in Islam. Only a rising by and of the truly outraged of Islam can stop these daily rampages done in the name of the prophet.
One thing is for sure: the banning of minarets, as announced a few minutes ago after a plebiscite in Switzerland, is precisely the wrong direction.
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COMMENTS (90)
"...so in the Philippines over the last days where every conceivable group of villains is Muslim and defines itself as Muslim..."
This in a country where private anti-Communist and anti-Moro armies and death squads have operated for the last three decades, run as often by Christians as by Muslims, and where the perpetrators of the massacre were members of a private army authorised by the (Catholic) President of the country...
But yeah, that massacre must have really excited Peretz. I can imagine a fair amount of lip-licking as he got ready to blame it on Global Islam.
"...so in the Philippines over the last days where every conceivable group of villains is Muslim and defines itself as Muslim..."
This in a country where private anti-Communist and anti-Moro armies and death squads have operated for the last three decades, run as often by Christians as by Muslims, and where the perpetrators of the massacre were members of a private army authorised by the (Catholic) President of the country...
But yeah, that massacre must have really excited Peretz. I can imagine a fair amount of lip-licking as he got ready to blame it on Global Islam.
Here we go again:
SMacEachern2
"...so in the Philippines over the last days where every conceivable group of villains is Muslim and defines itself as Muslim..."
"This in a country where private anti-Communist and anti-Moro armies and death squads have operated for the last three decades, run as often by Christians as by Muslims, and where the perpetrators of the massacre were members of a private army authorised by the (Catholic) President of the country... "
It's often the case that whenever Muslims perpetrate atrocious crimes as in Algeria leftist start out by blaming the government in power.
In Algeria for example tens of thousands of people have been murdered by these Islamic radicals ... view full comment
Here we go again:
SMacEachern2
"...so in the Philippines over the last days where every conceivable group of villains is Muslim and defines itself as Muslim..."
"This in a country where private anti-Communist and anti-Moro armies and death squads have operated for the last three decades, run as often by Christians as by Muslims, and where the perpetrators of the massacre were members of a private army authorised by the (Catholic) President of the country... "
It's often the case that whenever Muslims perpetrate atrocious crimes as in Algeria leftist start out by blaming the government in power.
In Algeria for example tens of thousands of people have been murdered by these Islamic radicals in the 1990’s, whole villages were destroyed with women and children having their throats cut, and while the government did go after these Islamicists and probably killed a lot of innocent people most of the casualties were the result go Muslim assaults on people who disliked the policies of the Islamicists.
I suspect that in the Philippines something similar is going on.
As for the bombing in Russia, it's not clear who is responsible, yet. It could be Chechen group or it could also be some right wing Russian group.
Either outcome wouldn't surprise me.
As for the bombing in Russia, it's not clear who is responsible, yet. It could be Chechen group or it could also be some right wing Russian group.
Either outcome wouldn't surprise me.
"In Algeria ... most of the casualties were the result go Muslim assaults on people who disliked the policies of the Islamicists."
Any proof of that? This was, remember, the result of the ruling party and the Algerian military halting elections with French and American support when it looked as if the FIS was going to win (can't have too much democracy in those Ay-rab countries, eh?), and no one has _ever_ been able to come up with an accounting of who was killed by the Islamicists and who by the security forces. Since some of the worst massacres were carried out just a hundred metres or so from army bases, military involvement seems just as likely as killing by Islamicists. Neither side had ... view full comment
"In Algeria ... most of the casualties were the result go Muslim assaults on people who disliked the policies of the Islamicists."
Any proof of that? This was, remember, the result of the ruling party and the Algerian military halting elections with French and American support when it looked as if the FIS was going to win (can't have too much democracy in those Ay-rab countries, eh?), and no one has _ever_ been able to come up with an accounting of who was killed by the Islamicists and who by the security forces. Since some of the worst massacres were carried out just a hundred metres or so from army bases, military involvement seems just as likely as killing by Islamicists. Neither side had clean hands in that civil war.
Irony if you are here, I threw you one back at the other thread, fwiiw.
Irony if you are here, I threw you one back at the other thread, fwiiw.
While we're still on Marty's jihad to declare acts of violence to be terrorism, or assuming Islamist motivations for the same, what about the repeated targeting of police officers in multiple assassination and bombing attempts by multiple perpetrators across the Pacific Northwest in the last five weeks? Five dead American cops, two more wounded, and narrowly averted firebombings of police stations: Why are these attacks not raising Marty's indignant demand to be named and treated as terrorism?
While we're still on Marty's jihad to declare acts of violence to be terrorism, or assuming Islamist motivations for the same, what about the repeated targeting of police officers in multiple assassination and bombing attempts by multiple perpetrators across the Pacific Northwest in the last five weeks? Five dead American cops, two more wounded, and narrowly averted firebombings of police stations: Why are these attacks not raising Marty's indignant demand to be named and treated as terrorism?
basman, thanks -- and a weak response now follows your extensive comment.
basman, thanks -- and a weak response now follows your extensive comment.
SMacEachern2 "Any proof of that? This was, remember, the result of the ruling party and the Algerian military halting elections with French and American support..."
America had nothing to do with that. You added that in order to continue your perfect record of anti-americanism.
Islamicists themselves were proud of what they were doing just as they were proud of killing people in the Paris metro, of do you think it was the Algerian military that bombed Paris at that time with French and American support?
SMacEachern2 "Any proof of that? This was, remember, the result of the ruling party and the Algerian military halting elections with French and American support..."
America had nothing to do with that. You added that in order to continue your perfect record of anti-americanism.
Islamicists themselves were proud of what they were doing just as they were proud of killing people in the Paris metro, of do you think it was the Algerian military that bombed Paris at that time with French and American support?
Sorry Marty, but I disagree with you on the minaret ban. For one, they are not necessary in Mosque construction and nothing in the law forbids construction of Mosques, two, aesthetically they just don't fit, I see nothing wrong with attempting to foster Swiss archtecture and traditions. I would be opposed to putting a huge cathedral in the midst of a traditional Chinese village, it would clash. Nevertheless in the Chinese town where I bought my home there is a 100 plus year old Catholic church that doesn't reek of Westernism, but is quite lovely and fulfills its purpose.
Finally, please, a Christian can't even set foot in Arabia without being forced to make every effort to hide his non ... view full comment
Sorry Marty, but I disagree with you on the minaret ban. For one, they are not necessary in Mosque construction and nothing in the law forbids construction of Mosques, two, aesthetically they just don't fit, I see nothing wrong with attempting to foster Swiss archtecture and traditions. I would be opposed to putting a huge cathedral in the midst of a traditional Chinese village, it would clash. Nevertheless in the Chinese town where I bought my home there is a 100 plus year old Catholic church that doesn't reek of Westernism, but is quite lovely and fulfills its purpose.
Finally, please, a Christian can't even set foot in Arabia without being forced to make every effort to hide his non Muslim beliefs. Screw every Arab who dares criticize the Swiss. Yes, I know it might sound obnoxious, but sometimes I am just so tired how we have to bend over again and again so as not to offend Muslims, once in a while it is good someone fights back and shows them how it feels to us when you dump all over us. If the Arabians want to make Arabia completely a Muslim country, fine by me, I don't have to go there or live there, just don't bitch when other countries ban not Mosques but traditional Arab architecture.
Here are a few interesting pickings from the internet about the minaret ban:
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/minaret-vote-muslim-reactions....
"The relationship with the Muslim world and Switzerland will be affected very negatively. I think that people will see Switzerland in a different way than in the past - netural and free. Now people see taht there's a lot of xenophobia and racism that somehow creeps in among the people there. But there's lacking much, much knowledge about Muslims and it is perhaps our fau ... view full comment
Here are a few interesting pickings from the internet about the minaret ban:
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/minaret-vote-muslim-reactions....
"The relationship with the Muslim world and Switzerland will be affected very negatively. I think that people will see Switzerland in a different way than in the past - netural and free. Now people see taht there's a lot of xenophobia and racism that somehow creeps in among the people there. But there's lacking much, much knowledge about Muslims and it is perhaps our fault that we aren't capable of informing about Islam and Muslims in a way that others can grasp and understand."
Q: How do you respond when things get like this? Are you sad, or ...?
A: I'm very sad because minarets don't harm anyone. On the contrary, they are good for the surrounding, a variety in the surrounding, and this is about the same as if one would say to Christians that the next step will be to ban also church bells in a referendum. Would you be happy or sad, though the clocks make more noise than minarets. So natrually it's very sad when one hears of a referendum like this," says Mahmod Aldebe."
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/quote-islam-is-by-now-swiss-an...
"I agree with Tariq Ramadan on one point here: the message of this referendum is that the Swiss don't want to see the Muslims. But his conclusion is exactly what the Swiss fear. Islam might be a religion in Switzerland, just as other minority religions, but it is not a 'Swiss religion".
Muslims want full equality, but the Swiss are only willing to give them 'minority' status.
Ramadan's incomprehension can be seen in the example he gives:
The minarets are but a pretext – the UDC wanted first to launch a campaign against the traditional Islamic methods of slaughtering animals but were afraid of testing the sensitivity of Swiss Jews, and instead turned their sights on the minaret as a suitable symbol.
He's right, of course, the minarets are just a pretext, but I'm surprised that he's not aware that kosher slaughter has been banned in Switzerland for more than a century, and they're now considering banning importing kosher slaughtered meat into the country as well."
http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2009/11/minaret-ban.html
"Argument to the effect that the ban is justified because of the subordinate position of women within Islam is misguided. It uses opposition to one form of unjustified discrimination to uphold another. Discrimination against women should be opposed with the full force of the law and by every other legitimate means; but discrimination against one religion - its beliefs, its symbols, or its buildings - isn't one of these."
_________
I grew up and lived in a country (Israel) where mosques were everywhere, not just silent minarets. No one minds them in Israel. But I do get an uneasy feeling about minarets springing up everywhere in Montreal. When I immigrated to Canada I expected church bells but not minarets. At the same time I know Norm has a very valid point about freedom of religion which must be accepted. Or, alternately, all religious buildings must be subject to the same law of keeping themselves completely interiorized, without any external suggestion as to what they are used for. A bit like those roadside streap clubs, with shuttered windows and always a few mega semi trailers parked in their huge parking lots. I mean people driving by know what they are and sometimes there is even a sign on the door like "danseuses nues" "24 hours a day" or something like that. But it is all discreetly done so as not to give offense.
sorry noga, but if I go to Switzerland I want to see Swiss chalets, not oriental kasbahs, so I disagree with Norm. They don't function as means to call people to prayer anymore, it is a foreign and middle eastern style of architecture, an imposition of another culture on a Swiss one. In Shanghai a lot of new apartment blocks are built with Greek themes, and it looks like hell. To be honest, if they banned those terrible looking glass megachurches in Switzerland, I would be for that as well.
Canada, the US, etc. we are forward looking and not so tied to the past and have no distinct universal styles so I would be against minaret bans in the US but Switzerland is not the US. It is insanely diff ... view full comment
sorry noga, but if I go to Switzerland I want to see Swiss chalets, not oriental kasbahs, so I disagree with Norm. They don't function as means to call people to prayer anymore, it is a foreign and middle eastern style of architecture, an imposition of another culture on a Swiss one. In Shanghai a lot of new apartment blocks are built with Greek themes, and it looks like hell. To be honest, if they banned those terrible looking glass megachurches in Switzerland, I would be for that as well.
Canada, the US, etc. we are forward looking and not so tied to the past and have no distinct universal styles so I would be against minaret bans in the US but Switzerland is not the US. It is insanely difficult to get Swiss citizenship because they look to retain their culture. That is their right.
And Muslims don't want full equality, they want the rest of the world to be subservient to them. (yes, I know not all Muslims, but when non Muslims are treated with 1/10th the respect in most Muslim countries, then I will be a little more sensitive to their feelings. Where the hell are the Swiss Muslims decrying treatment of non Muslims in Muslim countries?)
This is from Pakistan:
Karachi: November 30, 2009. (PCP) Dr. Nazir S Bhatti, President of Pakistan Christian Congress PCC expressed surprise on statement of Pakistani representatives in UNHRC expressing concern on Swiss vote ban on construction of minarets on mosques and other Islamic institutions in Switzerland when construction of new Churches in Pakistan has to follow strict government guidelines which prohibits one furlong from existing mosque and use of loudspeakers.
Nazir Bhatti said “ Christ The King processions and other open rituals have been banned in public places from decades but not any Muslim human right activists have raised voice against government actions to damage true spirit of religious freedom in Pakistan but their protests in name of human right against Swiss government vote to ban minarets is index of substandard”
In a statement released by PCC Central office here today also urged Saudi Arabia to allow construction of Churches in kingdom to challenge Swiss ban on minarets.
“The Human Right activists around world shall raise voice to press upon Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries in Middle East to permit construction of Cathedrals and ensure religious freedom for Christian minorities” added Nazir S Bhatti
Meanwhile news agency Reuters have reported that unexpected vote and high turnout in Sunday's referendum gives a boost to the right-wing populist Swiss People's Party (SVP), a relatively new political force that has shaken up the country's traditionally cozy power-sharing system.
I think that's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction Blackton. I think it goes without saying that Muslim dominated countries are not tolerant of religious diversity. But western nations are supposed to be different. I am not closely familiar with the Swiss situation, but I am skeptical that the minaret-ban is motivated purely by aesthetic considerations as opposed to religious/ethnic bias. In the US, a ban on minarets would be subject to serious challenge under the Free Exercise Clause. A governmental entity opposing such a ban would have a very heavy burden to show that its motivations were purely secular, and, even then, there would have to be a showing that the ban did not impose an unaccep ... view full comment
I think that's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction Blackton. I think it goes without saying that Muslim dominated countries are not tolerant of religious diversity. But western nations are supposed to be different. I am not closely familiar with the Swiss situation, but I am skeptical that the minaret-ban is motivated purely by aesthetic considerations as opposed to religious/ethnic bias. In the US, a ban on minarets would be subject to serious challenge under the Free Exercise Clause. A governmental entity opposing such a ban would have a very heavy burden to show that its motivations were purely secular, and, even then, there would have to be a showing that the ban did not impose an unacceptable burden of free exercise of religion.
But is should work both ways, shouldn't it Blackton? If it is the right of the Swiss to "retain their culture" by banning manifestations of other cultures, then why don't Arab nations have the same right?
Isn't it a better response to say that, to the extent the Swiss minaret-ban is based on religious/ethnic bias, it is deplorable, but Muslims don't have firm standing to complain about it?
But is should work both ways, shouldn't it Blackton? If it is the right of the Swiss to "retain their culture" by banning manifestations of other cultures, then why don't Arab nations have the same right?
Isn't it a better response to say that, to the extent the Swiss minaret-ban is based on religious/ethnic bias, it is deplorable, but Muslims don't have firm standing to complain about it?
Good post, Blackton.
Good post, Blackton.
dhurtado
"But is should work both ways, shouldn't it Blackton? If it is the right of the Swiss to "retain their culture" by banning manifestations of other cultures, then why don't Arab nations have the same right?"
is their culture in danger? Where? In Saudi Arabia? In Egypt? In which of the more than dozen Arab countries is their culture threatened?
dhurtado
"But is should work both ways, shouldn't it Blackton? If it is the right of the Swiss to "retain their culture" by banning manifestations of other cultures, then why don't Arab nations have the same right?"
is their culture in danger? Where? In Saudi Arabia? In Egypt? In which of the more than dozen Arab countries is their culture threatened?
Jackson,
Is the Swiss culture in danger? The point isn't that either culture is in danger. The point is that there is an inconsistency in condemning Arab socieities for religious intolerance while apologizing for the Swiss' apparent religious intolerance.
Jackson,
Is the Swiss culture in danger? The point isn't that either culture is in danger. The point is that there is an inconsistency in condemning Arab socieities for religious intolerance while apologizing for the Swiss' apparent religious intolerance.
dhurtado
"Jackson,
Is the Swiss culture in danger? The point isn't that either culture is in danger. The point is that there is an inconsistency in condemning Arab socieities for religious intolerance while apologizing for the Swiss' apparent religious intolerance."
What intolerance? As Blackton and other have pointed out there is no ban on Mosques.
And there is no inconsistency since the Saudis don't even allow non Muslims to set foot in their country unless they hide their religious affiliation.
dhurtado
"Jackson,
Is the Swiss culture in danger? The point isn't that either culture is in danger. The point is that there is an inconsistency in condemning Arab socieities for religious intolerance while apologizing for the Swiss' apparent religious intolerance."
What intolerance? As Blackton and other have pointed out there is no ban on Mosques.
And there is no inconsistency since the Saudis don't even allow non Muslims to set foot in their country unless they hide their religious affiliation.
"As Blackton and other have pointed out there is no ban on Mosques." Therefore, a ban on minarets is not motivated by religious bias? A non sequitur Jackson. It is naive to believe that the referendum was motivated by purely secular concerns. Btw, it is believed that the referendum will not survive Supreme Court review under the Swiss constitution.
"And there is no inconsistency since the Saudis don't even allow non Muslims to set foot in their country unless they hide their religious affiliation."
Huh? The fact that your intolerance is worse than mine means that my intolerance is OK? You know better.
"As Blackton and other have pointed out there is no ban on Mosques." Therefore, a ban on minarets is not motivated by religious bias? A non sequitur Jackson. It is naive to believe that the referendum was motivated by purely secular concerns. Btw, it is believed that the referendum will not survive Supreme Court review under the Swiss constitution.
"And there is no inconsistency since the Saudis don't even allow non Muslims to set foot in their country unless they hide their religious affiliation."
Huh? The fact that your intolerance is worse than mine means that my intolerance is OK? You know better.
No one said that, Hurtado.
The Muslims in Switzerland are not oppressed. As far as I know there is no need for armed policemen patrolling their Mosques as there is for Synagogues, there and all over Europe.
So, give it a rest.
No one said that, Hurtado.
The Muslims in Switzerland are not oppressed. As far as I know there is no need for armed policemen patrolling their Mosques as there is for Synagogues, there and all over Europe.
So, give it a rest.
That's exactly what you said Jackson. And you are continuing with the same type of non sequitur: "The Muslims in Switzerland are not oppressed. As far as I know there is no need for armed policemen patrolling their Mosques as there is for Synagogues, there and all over Europe." So discrimination against Jews is much worse than the discrimination against Muslims. Why would that justify discrimination against Muslims?
That's exactly what you said Jackson. And you are continuing with the same type of non sequitur: "The Muslims in Switzerland are not oppressed. As far as I know there is no need for armed policemen patrolling their Mosques as there is for Synagogues, there and all over Europe." So discrimination against Jews is much worse than the discrimination against Muslims. Why would that justify discrimination against Muslims?
Give it a break, Hurtado.
Where is the discrimination against Muslims?
Here in the Boston area the Mormon Church wante to build one of their huge temples that would have dominated the skyline of a small town. The town people said, 'no way' adn the Mormons were forced to scale back their temple.
Are Mormons being oppressed here?
You are on of those Muslims, Hurtado, who would like to see any regulation as oppression.
Are Muslims being assaulted in Switzerland, are their Mosques attacked?
Give it a break, Hurtado.
Where is the discrimination against Muslims?
Here in the Boston area the Mormon Church wante to build one of their huge temples that would have dominated the skyline of a small town. The town people said, 'no way' adn the Mormons were forced to scale back their temple.
Are Mormons being oppressed here?
You are on of those Muslims, Hurtado, who would like to see any regulation as oppression.
Are Muslims being assaulted in Switzerland, are their Mosques attacked?
Banning of minarets anywhere in the country is discrimination against Muslims, just as it would be discrimination against Christians to ban steeples on Christian churches or cathedrals. The supporters of the ban could argue that they just don't like the aesthetics of steeples on the skyline, but we would know better.
I am not a Muslim Jackson. Hurtado is a Spanish surname. I was raised in the Christian tradition but I am agnostic.
Banning of minarets anywhere in the country is discrimination against Muslims, just as it would be discrimination against Christians to ban steeples on Christian churches or cathedrals. The supporters of the ban could argue that they just don't like the aesthetics of steeples on the skyline, but we would know better.
I am not a Muslim Jackson. Hurtado is a Spanish surname. I was raised in the Christian tradition but I am agnostic.
dhurtado
"Banning of minarets anywhere in the country is discrimination against Muslims, just as it would be discrimination against Christians to ban steeples on Christian churches or cathedrals."
Different countries, different laws.
I wouldn't myself want to live next to a Mosque with a minaret and be awakened early in the AM by the loud calls for prayer.
A few blocks from were I live there is a huge Church with a bell tower but they don't sound the bell early in the morning. If they did they would have a law suit on their hands.
dhurtado
"Banning of minarets anywhere in the country is discrimination against Muslims, just as it would be discrimination against Christians to ban steeples on Christian churches or cathedrals."
Different countries, different laws.
I wouldn't myself want to live next to a Mosque with a minaret and be awakened early in the AM by the loud calls for prayer.
A few blocks from were I live there is a huge Church with a bell tower but they don't sound the bell early in the morning. If they did they would have a law suit on their hands.
Taj Hargey - chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford - in the Times:
"Switzerland’s referendum vote to ban minarets is needlessly xenophobic but it does not infringe the religious liberty of Swiss Muslims. Minarets remain emblematic of mosques in the Muslim heartlands but there is no theological reason why houses of worship in the West have to incorporate such towers.
Their original purpose was to relay the prayer call with the unamplified voice. Today this is done by modern technology, so minarets are not integral to contemporary mosque design. European mosques should stop mindlessly mimicking Eastern design and create prayer halls that blend into the landscape.
Muslims w ... view full comment
Taj Hargey - chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford - in the Times:
"Switzerland’s referendum vote to ban minarets is needlessly xenophobic but it does not infringe the religious liberty of Swiss Muslims. Minarets remain emblematic of mosques in the Muslim heartlands but there is no theological reason why houses of worship in the West have to incorporate such towers.
Their original purpose was to relay the prayer call with the unamplified voice. Today this is done by modern technology, so minarets are not integral to contemporary mosque design. European mosques should stop mindlessly mimicking Eastern design and create prayer halls that blend into the landscape.
Muslims who have settled in Switzerland (and elsewhere in Europe) should not confuse culture with creed. To become integrated into their surroundings, they must relinquish the cultural baggage of their ancestral homelands. They should practice a Swiss Islam that is rooted in the society in which they live.
Although the Swiss have been convinced by right-wing zealots that minarets are a problem, local Muslims should not embrace a victim mentality. They must confront the toxic radicalisation of their faith that is imported from overseas. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/a...
dhurtado, one last thing, beyond the aesthetics (and I agree with Taj Hargey) You say western countries should be better, and we are, and I agree there is a serious element of xenophobia in the Swiss action but once in a while it presents an object lesson, and if any Arab nation raises and objection, we have a ready reply. There is a serious rot in Arab Muslim culture (as there was a serious rot in the US southern culture). They need an Ataturk, but if there isn't we have to push back, at least in an attempt to get these people to understand.
By the way, on South Park they daily make fun of Jesus, the Pope, etc. but never once have been allowed to make fun of Mohammed, nor has any comedy show ... view full comment
dhurtado, one last thing, beyond the aesthetics (and I agree with Taj Hargey) You say western countries should be better, and we are, and I agree there is a serious element of xenophobia in the Swiss action but once in a while it presents an object lesson, and if any Arab nation raises and objection, we have a ready reply. There is a serious rot in Arab Muslim culture (as there was a serious rot in the US southern culture). They need an Ataturk, but if there isn't we have to push back, at least in an attempt to get these people to understand.
By the way, on South Park they daily make fun of Jesus, the Pope, etc. but never once have been allowed to make fun of Mohammed, nor has any comedy show.
noga1
"Taj Hargey - chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford - in the Times:
'Switzerland’s referendum vote to ban minarets is needlessly xenophobic but it does not infringe the religious liberty of Swiss Muslims. Minarets remain emblematic of mosques in the Muslim heartlands but there is no theological reason why houses of worship in the West have to incorporate such towers...'"
Thanks for posting this. Blakton has said the same thing above and this is my understanding also.
Hurtado got on his high horse to rescue people who are in no danger and don't need rescuing.
As for the Swiss, I visited Geneva once and tend to agree with Orson Wells' character. Hundreds of years of pe ... view full comment
noga1
"Taj Hargey - chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford - in the Times:
'Switzerland’s referendum vote to ban minarets is needlessly xenophobic but it does not infringe the religious liberty of Swiss Muslims. Minarets remain emblematic of mosques in the Muslim heartlands but there is no theological reason why houses of worship in the West have to incorporate such towers...'"
Thanks for posting this. Blakton has said the same thing above and this is my understanding also.
Hurtado got on his high horse to rescue people who are in no danger and don't need rescuing.
As for the Swiss, I visited Geneva once and tend to agree with Orson Wells' character. Hundreds of years of peace and all they did was invent the cuckoo clock; that and figuring out ways of getting hold of other people's money. Still they are not Austrians, where they would like to count foreskins, and that is in their favor.
I don't love the Swiss, but theirs is a small country. 300,000 immigrants is not a miniscule minority. There's probably a lot of xenophobia in this new law, but at the same time, this definitely has the markings of a country taking a stand--they're telling the world that if you can't adjust to life in our Swiss world, you're not welcome. If you can't assimilate, don't bother. It could keep a lot of the too zealous out of their country.
I don't love the Swiss, but theirs is a small country. 300,000 immigrants is not a miniscule minority. There's probably a lot of xenophobia in this new law, but at the same time, this definitely has the markings of a country taking a stand--they're telling the world that if you can't adjust to life in our Swiss world, you're not welcome. If you can't assimilate, don't bother. It could keep a lot of the too zealous out of their country.
"Hurtado got on his high horse to rescue people who are in no danger and don't need rescuing."
Nicely put.
I noticed he was also quite dismissive of those who are in real danger. Took it very well in stride. What to make of this incoherence?
"Hurtado got on his high horse to rescue people who are in no danger and don't need rescuing."
Nicely put.
I noticed he was also quite dismissive of those who are in real danger. Took it very well in stride. What to make of this incoherence?
One might note, however, that Orson Welles's "character" is a evil scumbag who's been making his money by selling diluted black-market penicillin to children's hospitals.
One might note, however, that Orson Welles's "character" is a evil scumbag who's been making his money by selling diluted black-market penicillin to children's hospitals.
And the pathetic thing about this, blackton, jacksondyer and etc, is that you end up defending a ban against minarets pushed by the Union Démocratique du Centre, a Swiss right-wing party whose leaders in the past have campaigned in support of South Africa under apartheid, who resisted legal initiatives in Switzerland to make wives legally equal to husbands in marriages - and who characterised campaigns for reparations to the descendants of Jews whose money was confiscated in Switzerland during the Holocaust as "..the eternal Jewish lust for money.." (Christophe Blocher, in that last case.)
You're willing to embrace a party that includes significant racist and anti-semitic elements... because ... view full comment
And the pathetic thing about this, blackton, jacksondyer and etc, is that you end up defending a ban against minarets pushed by the Union Démocratique du Centre, a Swiss right-wing party whose leaders in the past have campaigned in support of South Africa under apartheid, who resisted legal initiatives in Switzerland to make wives legally equal to husbands in marriages - and who characterised campaigns for reparations to the descendants of Jews whose money was confiscated in Switzerland during the Holocaust as "..the eternal Jewish lust for money.." (Christophe Blocher, in that last case.)
You're willing to embrace a party that includes significant racist and anti-semitic elements... because they engage in Muslim-bashing, too, and really what's more important than that? Blackton, is that the 'traditional Swiss architecture' you want to preserve?
jacksondyer: For America's role in the military putsch in Algeria, take a look at Martin Evans' and John Phillips' book _Algeria: anger of the dispossessed_ - if you're actually willing to learn abt the case, that is.
jacksondyer: For America's role in the military putsch in Algeria, take a look at Martin Evans' and John Phillips' book _Algeria: anger of the dispossessed_ - if you're actually willing to learn abt the case, that is.
Trust ironyroad to jump in trying to "straighten" a crooked picture. So unfair to say unkind things about the Swiss. Something must surely be wrong with those who deign to say them.
A reminder:
The following quotation is taken from an article in the New Yorker which dealt with the complicated question of Swiss accountability, Nazi Gold and Holocaust survivors:
"Robert Holzach, at U.B.S. wanted to reassure me that with one possible exception there were no Jews "at the top" in any of the three public banks. He said that the banking scandal was really a war. It had to do with a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world's "Prestige financial markets", something he told me is already happening in ... view full comment
Trust ironyroad to jump in trying to "straighten" a crooked picture. So unfair to say unkind things about the Swiss. Something must surely be wrong with those who deign to say them.
A reminder:
The following quotation is taken from an article in the New Yorker which dealt with the complicated question of Swiss accountability, Nazi Gold and Holocaust survivors:
"Robert Holzach, at U.B.S. wanted to reassure me that with one possible exception there were no Jews "at the top" in any of the three public banks. He said that the banking scandal was really a war. It had to do with a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world's "Prestige financial markets", something he told me is already happening in New York, London, and "even Frankfurt".
Jane Kramer, "Manna From Hell", The New Yorker, April 28 and May 5, 1997, p. 89
____________
"Swiss officials were involved, when Germany introduced a new stamp (a red J) to mark passports of Jews.
Switzerland did reject between 20,000 to 25,000 Jewish refugees at the border, even after the government (not necessarily the population) was informed, that the Nazis would not only send them to labour camps but rather murder them systematically.
Swiss diplomats in Germany and occupied territories did not enough to defend the rights of Swiss citizens living there, especially if these Swiss citizens were Jews.
The main responsibility for the shortcomings lies with the government, the administration and to a lesser extent with the right wing majority of the parliament, supporting the hard line of the government.
There was also widespread fear among the population, that refugees would aggravate the shortage on food (see rationing and "cultivation battle"). These feelings were not based on sober statistics, however: the total of rejected refugees would have increased the total population by only 0.6 %! "
http://history-switzerland.geschichte-schweiz.ch/holocaust-jewish-refuge...
___________
"Disgust over rising Swiss anti- Semitism has cast a shadow over the much-publicized release of names on dormant bank accounts from the Nazi era.
"Keep your money," Israel Singer, the secretary-general of the World Jewish Congress, told the Swiss in a pique of sarcasm during a news conference Wednesday. "The lists published today are not important if the 18,000-member Jewish minority of this country should suffer from anti-Semitism."
Singer continued: "We know that the Jewish people in [Switzerland] are again afraid. If this is the price of our efforts to bring justice to the Holocaust victims, I feel shame for the Swiss people."
http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/6181/anti-semitism-in-switzerland-th...
______________
In a Hebrew play I just finished reading, one of the characters, a person bent under a load of Holocaust-survivor guilt, tells a young Israeli: If three quarters of humanity were to be wiped out by some evil entity, the remaining quarter will somehow make excuses for it, make peace with that event and continue in its perfidious evil ways as though nothing happened.
Noga, please, that's just an unfriendly dig for the sake of it.
Like Shakespeare, Graham Green built in a certain disparity between his character's speech and his character's character.
Hence Harry Lime both speaks a poetic truth about the Swiss while also being an evil sociopath.
Noga, please, that's just an unfriendly dig for the sake of it.
Like Shakespeare, Graham Green built in a certain disparity between his character's speech and his character's character.
Hence Harry Lime both speaks a poetic truth about the Swiss while also being an evil sociopath.
"Noga, please, that's just an unfriendly dig for the sake of it."
What would you call your intervention, then? An irresistible impulse to literary criticism? Whether you intended it or not, your comment served as mitigation, by impeaching Jackson's source.
"Noga, please, that's just an unfriendly dig for the sake of it."
What would you call your intervention, then? An irresistible impulse to literary criticism? Whether you intended it or not, your comment served as mitigation, by impeaching Jackson's source.
"An irresistible impulse to literary criticism?"
Maybe a touch of that. I'd rather call it a comment on an intriguing aspect of a fictional character introduced by a fellow poster in a discussion.
And, as it was (clearly) meant more in the playful rather than serious mode, it matched JD's own referencing of Harry Lime, itself an amusing but not quite entirely serious remark.
Unless, of course, you disagree with my reading of Harry Lime . . . ?
"An irresistible impulse to literary criticism?"
Maybe a touch of that. I'd rather call it a comment on an intriguing aspect of a fictional character introduced by a fellow poster in a discussion.
And, as it was (clearly) meant more in the playful rather than serious mode, it matched JD's own referencing of Harry Lime, itself an amusing but not quite entirely serious remark.
Unless, of course, you disagree with my reading of Harry Lime . . . ?
"Unless, of course, you disagree with my reading of Harry Lime . . . ?"
I'm happy to admit that while I have heard of the cuckoo clock before I never heard of Harry Lime (or happily suppressed any memory of him. Is he the prototype for LeCarre's tailor of Panama?). It is obvious that our literary spheres have been widely different.
"Unless, of course, you disagree with my reading of Harry Lime . . . ?"
I'm happy to admit that while I have heard of the cuckoo clock before I never heard of Harry Lime (or happily suppressed any memory of him. Is he the prototype for LeCarre's tailor of Panama?). It is obvious that our literary spheres have been widely different.
oh for heaven's sake smac. Hitler supported the autobahn in Germany, so should we rip up the roads as well now? And Communists supported desegregation in the South, so lets bring segregation back? For the 77th time, the main reason I would support a ban on Minarets is the Oriental architecture clashes with traditional Swiss architecture. What, I can't have my own damn reasons, right away it makes me into a Nazi? And news flash, the Swiss are freaking xenophobic, obsessively so. You seem to be clueless to history, Switzerland did not enter the UN until 2002. Women were only granted the right to vote in 1971. And you are acting surprised by this ban?? I wouldn't choose to live in Switzerland f ... view full comment
oh for heaven's sake smac. Hitler supported the autobahn in Germany, so should we rip up the roads as well now? And Communists supported desegregation in the South, so lets bring segregation back? For the 77th time, the main reason I would support a ban on Minarets is the Oriental architecture clashes with traditional Swiss architecture. What, I can't have my own damn reasons, right away it makes me into a Nazi? And news flash, the Swiss are freaking xenophobic, obsessively so. You seem to be clueless to history, Switzerland did not enter the UN until 2002. Women were only granted the right to vote in 1971. And you are acting surprised by this ban?? I wouldn't choose to live in Switzerland for a host of reasons, this sure as hell wouldn't even crack the top ten, but the Swiss also have the right to enforce their own customs, where it is egregious I will protest (women not having vote, Swiss banking laws, etc.)
but this simply doesn't rate high enough for me.
As I have also said, perhaps this push back can facilitate dialog to actually allow Christians to have some small measure of freedom in Arab countries, but obviously you have no opinion about that, you are fine with women being forced to wear the veil and girls at the age of 9 getting married.
Noga! I'm shocked. It's a famous movie, The Third Man, set in Allied-occupied Vienna in 1946-7. Directed by Carol Reed, screenplay by Graham Greene.
I think Our Man in Havana was the model for The Tailor of Panama.
Noga! I'm shocked. It's a famous movie, The Third Man, set in Allied-occupied Vienna in 1946-7. Directed by Carol Reed, screenplay by Graham Greene.
I think Our Man in Havana was the model for The Tailor of Panama.
Noga:
http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/Harry_Lime_Theme/22183700
Noga:
http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/Harry_Lime_Theme/22183700
I know that tune. I saw that film. A million years ago. I vaguely remember Joseph Cotton(?) in it. Am I right? I don't feel like googling it. I know it is supposed to be one of the greatest films ever made. Perhaps I should try watching it again, now that I am in the automn of my life. I might be impressed.
I know that tune. I saw that film. A million years ago. I vaguely remember Joseph Cotton(?) in it. Am I right? I don't feel like googling it. I know it is supposed to be one of the greatest films ever made. Perhaps I should try watching it again, now that I am in the automn of my life. I might be impressed.
That's it. Cotten, Orson Welles, Trevor Howard, Avila someone as the woman in Harry's life.
I have mixed feelings about it -- at times I like it more with each viewing; at others I think it's the oddest film ever made, and getting odder.
Nice things, though: e.g. Holly Martens (Cotten), who writes pulp westerns, being asked to say a few words about modern literature in front of a Vienna intellectuals' gathering; Major Calloway's (Howard) dyspeptic grimace and shaggy duffel coat.
That's it. Cotten, Orson Welles, Trevor Howard, Avila someone as the woman in Harry's life.
I have mixed feelings about it -- at times I like it more with each viewing; at others I think it's the oddest film ever made, and getting odder.
Nice things, though: e.g. Holly Martens (Cotten), who writes pulp westerns, being asked to say a few words about modern literature in front of a Vienna intellectuals' gathering; Major Calloway's (Howard) dyspeptic grimace and shaggy duffel coat.
SMacEachern2 “You're willing to embrace a party that includes significant racist and anti-semitic elements... because they engage in Muslim-bashing, too, and really what's more important than that?”
Give me a break Maceachern, I embraced nothing Swiss.
The referendum didn’t ban Mosques. It banned minarets and I wouldn’t want them in my neighborhood either. The rights of religious institutions end when the rights of individuals are violated. Using minarets to call people to prayer over loud speakers is an invasion of privacy.
SMacEachern2 “You're willing to embrace a party that includes significant racist and anti-semitic elements... because they engage in Muslim-bashing, too, and really what's more important than that?”
Give me a break Maceachern, I embraced nothing Swiss.
The referendum didn’t ban Mosques. It banned minarets and I wouldn’t want them in my neighborhood either. The rights of religious institutions end when the rights of individuals are violated. Using minarets to call people to prayer over loud speakers is an invasion of privacy.
SMacEachern2
"jacksondyer: For America's role in the military putsch in Algeria, take a look at Martin Evans' and John Phillips' book _Algeria: anger of the dispossessed_ - if you're actually willing to learn abt the case, that is."
I am willing to learn, but I would need more evidence than what the likes of you provide.
The Washington Post review says the American contribution amounted to
“The darkest irony, Evans and Phillips conclude, is that only 9/11 prevented Algeria from falling into a worse cataclysm. Spotting an opportunity, President Abdelaziz Bouteflika flew to Washington and convinced the Bush administration that he stood shoulder-to-shoulder in the war on terror.”
view full comment
SMacEachern2
"jacksondyer: For America's role in the military putsch in Algeria, take a look at Martin Evans' and John Phillips' book _Algeria: anger of the dispossessed_ - if you're actually willing to learn abt the case, that is."
I am willing to learn, but I would need more evidence than what the likes of you provide.
The Washington Post review says the American contribution amounted to
“The darkest irony, Evans and Phillips conclude, is that only 9/11 prevented Algeria from falling into a worse cataclysm. Spotting an opportunity, President Abdelaziz Bouteflika flew to Washington and convinced the Bush administration that he stood shoulder-to-shoulder in the war on terror.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/27/AR200803...
By that date the Islamic insurgency was coming to an end:
“ISLAMIC INSURGENCY”
Date Reported: Wednesday, April 05, 2000
Incident Type: SECURITY
Country: ALGIERS, ALGERIA
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2000/04/000405-alger...
Moreover the Algerian government had always been leftist and had been supplied with arms by the Soviet Union. That fact and its close relationship with France meant any role there by the US would have been minor indeed.
“Algeria is a leading military power in North Africa and has its force oriented toward its western (Morocco) and eastern (Libya) borders. Its primary military supplier has been the former Soviet Union, which has sold various types of sophisticated equipment under military trade agreements, and the People's Republic of China. Algeria has attempted, in recent years, to diversify its sources of military material. Military forces are supplemented by a 70,000-member gendarmerie or rural police force under the control of the president and 30,000-member Sûreté nationale or metropolitan police force under the Ministry of the Interior.
In 2007, the Algerian Air Force signed a deal with Russia to purchase 49 MiG-29SMT and 6 MiG-29UBT at an estimated $1.9 billion. They also agreed to return old aircraft purchased from the Former USSR. Russia is also building two 636-type diesel submarines for Algeria.[41]
As of October 2009 it was reported that Algeria had cancelled a weapons deal with France over the possibility of inclusion of Israeli parts in them.[42]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria#Foreign_relations_and_military
However, I have no doubt you will keep blaming the US for any and all ills in the world.
12/01/2009 - 5:08pm EDT | luispc
"Very well put SMacEachern."
This from a poster who doesn't want Turkey in the European uber State!
12/01/2009 - 5:08pm EDT | luispc
"Very well put SMacEachern."
This from a poster who doesn't want Turkey in the European uber State!
“And, as it was (clearly) meant more in the playful rather than serious mode, it matched JD's own referencing of Harry Lime, itself an amusing but not quite entirely serious remark.”
I am aware of that Irony. Still it couldn’t have been to far from what the Catholic G. Greene thought about the “industrious Swiss,” which for him was undoubtedly Geneva which in his day was still more Protestant than Catholic.
“And, as it was (clearly) meant more in the playful rather than serious mode, it matched JD's own referencing of Harry Lime, itself an amusing but not quite entirely serious remark.”
I am aware of that Irony. Still it couldn’t have been to far from what the Catholic G. Greene thought about the “industrious Swiss,” which for him was undoubtedly Geneva which in his day was still more Protestant than Catholic.
OK. I ordered the movie from zip (the Canadian version of Netflix).
OK. I ordered the movie from zip (the Canadian version of Netflix).
noga1
"OK. I ordered the movie from zip (the Canadian version of Netflix)."
Can't you check it out from your local library?
noga1
"OK. I ordered the movie from zip (the Canadian version of Netflix)."
Can't you check it out from your local library?
True enough, JD.
Indeed Harry Lime -- at least as played by Welles -- has something tortured about him, as if he is helplessly in love with evil rather than just doing bad things. He is a Catholic rather than a modern Protestant villain.
True enough, JD.
Indeed Harry Lime -- at least as played by Welles -- has something tortured about him, as if he is helplessly in love with evil rather than just doing bad things. He is a Catholic rather than a modern Protestant villain.
ironyroad
"Indeed Harry Lime -- at least as played by Welles -- has something tortured about him, as if he is helplessly in love with evil rather than just doing bad things. He is a Catholic rather than a modern Protestant villain."
An astute observation, Irony. Hadn't thought of it quite in that way before.
ironyroad
"Indeed Harry Lime -- at least as played by Welles -- has something tortured about him, as if he is helplessly in love with evil rather than just doing bad things. He is a Catholic rather than a modern Protestant villain."
An astute observation, Irony. Hadn't thought of it quite in that way before.
To my statement, "Banning of minarets anywhere in the country is discrimination against Muslims, just as it would be discrimination against Christians to ban steeples on Christian churches or cathedrals," Jackson says,
"Different countries, different laws. "
Another non sequitur. By definition, an analogy involves different situations that are similar in relevant respects. Jackson fails to explain how the differences here show that the minaret-ban is not discrimination, even though a general ban on church steeples clearly would be.
Taj Hargey agrees that the minaret ban is "needlessly xenophobic," but suggests that the ban does not infringe the religious liberty of Swiss Muslims, and sugges ... view full comment
To my statement, "Banning of minarets anywhere in the country is discrimination against Muslims, just as it would be discrimination against Christians to ban steeples on Christian churches or cathedrals," Jackson says,
"Different countries, different laws. "
Another non sequitur. By definition, an analogy involves different situations that are similar in relevant respects. Jackson fails to explain how the differences here show that the minaret-ban is not discrimination, even though a general ban on church steeples clearly would be.
Taj Hargey agrees that the minaret ban is "needlessly xenophobic," but suggests that the ban does not infringe the religious liberty of Swiss Muslims, and suggests that Swiss Muslims should just get over it. I don't presume to know whether the ban infringes Muslims’ religious liberty (though I suspect many Swiss Muslims disagree with Hargey), but it is indisputably an expression of religious/ethnic bigotry. That is the point here.
I commend to you Mona Eltahawy's article, "Europe's call to intolerance," published in today’s washingtonpost.com. It clearly demonstrates the xenophobia and other bigotry that animates the ban, while at the same time making the point that I have made here that people in Muslim-dominated countries do not have standing to complain about it without being hypocrites.
Blackton says: "dhurtado, one last thing, beyond the aesthetics (and I agree with Taj Hargey) You say western countries should be better, and we are, and I agree there is a serious element of xenophobia in the Swiss action but once in a while it presents an object lesson, and if any Arab nation raises and objection, we have a ready reply. There is a serious rot in Arab Muslim culture (as there was a serious rot in the US southern culture). They need an Ataturk, but if there isn't we have to push back, at least in an attempt to get these people to understand."
Well, then, what's wrong with my above-suggested response to this issue: "[T]o the extent the Swiss minaret-ban is based on religious/ethnic bias, it is deplorable, but Muslims don't have firm standing to complain about it"?
That is the statement that has Jackson and Noga apoplectically asserting that I don't care about religious bigotry on the part of Muslims. Apparently, they believe that anti-Muslim bigotry cannot be criticized without making the critic an apologist for Muslim bigotry.