PrintNo one who has read either Start-Up Nation: The Story of Israel's Economic Miracle (by Dan Senor and Saul Singer) or The Israel Test (by George Gilder) could have been surprised by the news that Israeli scientists and private investors have produced a no-nonsense electric car that meets all the myriad objections raised to other vehicles of the type.
The fact is that any model automobile can be fitted for the ever-renewable battery. Yes, it has the cumbersome chargeable option. But the real point about the battery is that, when it runs out of power (at about the time your engine would have run out of gas), you go to your battery station (instead of gas station) and exchange the exhausted one for a recharged one. This transaction will take about five minutes. And on and on.
Soon the world will be full of these cars in models from Renault (which has already signed on) to, well, everyone.
There is a "JPost TV" film clip on the Jerusalem Postwebsite that tells the story.
The Associated Press also reports on the development.
And what does this mean for the Palestinians? Nothing, nothing at all.
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COMMENTS (21)
The car is by Renault-Nissan. And the batteries factory is being constructed in Portugal. Yes, in "PIIGISH" Portugal, which, btw, comes 2nd only to Denmark in the production and use of renewable energies.
The car is by Renault-Nissan. And the batteries factory is being constructed in Portugal. Yes, in "PIIGISH" Portugal, which, btw, comes 2nd only to Denmark in the production and use of renewable energies.
Of course, our program to build a post carbon economy, which we were proudy pursuing, will be seriously damaged if this speculative attack on our public finances succeeds.
God, how can something like this happen? Of course, we cannot expect anything from rating agencies and investment banks. They'll do "their thing" until the day they get dismantled like any other mafia organization (and that will be a good day).
What I find astonishing is the passivity of European central institutions. They were warned one year ago that a speculative attack on states was likely and very dangerous. And they did nothing, leaving the states defenseless before predator financial markets.
Of course, our program to build a post carbon economy, which we were proudy pursuing, will be seriously damaged if this speculative attack on our public finances succeeds.
God, how can something like this happen? Of course, we cannot expect anything from rating agencies and investment banks. They'll do "their thing" until the day they get dismantled like any other mafia organization (and that will be a good day).
What I find astonishing is the passivity of European central institutions. They were warned one year ago that a speculative attack on states was likely and very dangerous. And they did nothing, leaving the states defenseless before predator financial markets.
You do realize that a fully charged battery in this car has a range of 99 miles, right? That's adequate for a tiny country like Israel or Denmark, but laughably inadequate for a country as large and as mobile as the United States. Even places like Germany, Britain, China, Russia, or Turkey need cars with better range than the Israeli battery's 99 miles.
This technology is the functional equivalent of a car that has to stop to take a carwash every hour and a half. Sure, the carwash machine will take "only" three minutes, but that doesn't count the inevitable lines, the fact that large machines like this always run slower in the field than in the lab, or the high odds of a breakdown at one sit ... view full comment
You do realize that a fully charged battery in this car has a range of 99 miles, right? That's adequate for a tiny country like Israel or Denmark, but laughably inadequate for a country as large and as mobile as the United States. Even places like Germany, Britain, China, Russia, or Turkey need cars with better range than the Israeli battery's 99 miles.
This technology is the functional equivalent of a car that has to stop to take a carwash every hour and a half. Sure, the carwash machine will take "only" three minutes, but that doesn't count the inevitable lines, the fact that large machines like this always run slower in the field than in the lab, or the high odds of a breakdown at one site forcing you to search out other sites, or even stop for a multi-hour recharge in order to get to the next replacement site. The impracticalities of this in most countries are both prohibitively staggering and also glaringly obvious. Long-distance driving with one of these vehicles is functionally impossible, even assuming the existence of a ubiquitous infrastructure. Even daily commuting would require a battery replacement every other day for the average American who merely commutes to work. If your commute is even the tiniest bit longer than average, of if you regularly make trips other than to and from work - stop at the grocery store, pick up the kids, drive to little league, etc. - you're looking at replacing your battery every day.
But let's pretend that anyone would be willing to submit to such ridiculous limits on her mobility. The infrastructural needs of such a system beggar the imagination. Since the average car will need to change batteries at least three times a week - most cars more like five - each battery-change station would have to keep on hand an immense inventory of batteries. And I mean literally, physically immense. Plus we'd have to have more of these stations than we currently have gas stations. We already have an insane number of gas stations - 115,000 or so - many with a dozen or more gas pumps, and they're only barely adequate to meet demand because most people need to gas up no more than twice a week. Imagine the lines at your neighborhood gas stations if everyone had to fill her tank every day.
So we would need hundreds of thousands of these charging stations - Israel plans to build seventy! - and each would sit on more land than a gas station, with a small warehouse of battery inventory, and probably a power grid substation nearby to handle the constant charging load. Every residential neighborhood in America, and many commercial and retail districts, would be radically transformed by the land-use implications of this system alone. Any one of those infrastructure impracticalities would doom a project; put them all together and we've left the realm of science fiction for pure fantasy.
MP, you really have to do your homework before you pontificate.
Yes, Shai Aggassi is the driving force behind "A Better Place", but as noted by others, the cars are being built by Renault-Nissan, and based on what has been in the news here in Israel on the topic, I don't know of any significant Israeli technological contribution to the cars, batteries, or charging stations (if the cars use Intel chips in their computer systems, then most of those are developed at Intel's R&D facilities in Israel; see, e.g., the Centrino & multicore CPU chips).
As far as investors go, most of the money I believe came from outside Israel; I think Aggassi himself made most of his fortune in Silicon Valley ... view full comment
MP, you really have to do your homework before you pontificate.
Yes, Shai Aggassi is the driving force behind "A Better Place", but as noted by others, the cars are being built by Renault-Nissan, and based on what has been in the news here in Israel on the topic, I don't know of any significant Israeli technological contribution to the cars, batteries, or charging stations (if the cars use Intel chips in their computer systems, then most of those are developed at Intel's R&D facilities in Israel; see, e.g., the Centrino & multicore CPU chips).
As far as investors go, most of the money I believe came from outside Israel; I think Aggassi himself made most of his fortune in Silicon Valley. Israel's major contribution I think is that given the relatively short distances most people travel here (limited to the borders of the country about the size of New Jersey) it's a good place to demonstrate feasibility, particularly of his arguably unusual business model. Also he is hoping to get government cooperation in the form of significant reduction on the heavy import duties (~90%) we pay on cars here, so that the car can be competitive, if not attractively priced or leased (a lot of cars are leased here as a benny for key employees of companies).
From what I've heard of the car, it's capabilities are less than meets the eye. The claim 160 KM (~100 miles) on a charge, but that is reported to assume super careful driving with little acceleration and possibly no A/C. They are also planning only ~100 battery swap stations in the entire country; by comparison there are well over 20,000 gasoline filling stations here.
And last but not least it is being built by Renault, a car which hasn't been sold in the USA for many years, so you don't know of its quality or lack thereof. I own a 4.5 year old 2006 Renault Meganne II and I can attest that after 142,000+ KM it is the worst automotive mistake I have ever made. Truly a piece of junk (for the record I bought it new and have had it serviced regularly -- indeed often; actually too often -- at the dealership, following their service guidelines to a "T").
In short, I am not impressed and I am quite skeptical.
Rhubarbs, I just noticed your post, and you are so right... mostly. During a recent press conference, a reporter asked "A Better Place" management how many batteries will each swapping station hold, in view of the current $10,000 price tag (ultimately expected to drop to $5,000) per battery. The management folk chose to dodge the question.
Where you err is in the number of charging stations (as opposed to battery swap stations) or more correctly charging posts. Those will be installed (and already are being installed in Haifa) all over in parking garages, some residential areas, and other places where there is a high concentration of parked cars.
BTW, "A Better Place" opened up a visitor's center just north of Tel Aviv on the grounds of a former tank (of the gasoline and petroleum products variety) farm. Apparently it includes a test track where you can try out their demonstrator vehicles. Since its not far from my daughter's army base, maybe I'll go check it out the next time I drop her off or pick her up there.
ABP plans a 2011 launch for their car system. Stay tuned....
Hershel Ginsburg
Jerusalem / Efrata
Like Rhubarbs said: potentially a fine technology for Israel; maybe a niche product for tightly concentrated urban populations in the US; utterly impractical in the short term for most of the sprawled out US, and marginal at best for much of Europe. Completely out of the question where I live in the hinterland.
The US would be much better off with plugin hybrids. 50% of even my driving would be electric in that case, and I would not hesitate to buy such a solution. Many commuters could easily get to 90+% electric with no loss,and maybe an improvement in convenience of the overall solution. But this car - not a chance.
Like Rhubarbs said: potentially a fine technology for Israel; maybe a niche product for tightly concentrated urban populations in the US; utterly impractical in the short term for most of the sprawled out US, and marginal at best for much of Europe. Completely out of the question where I live in the hinterland.
The US would be much better off with plugin hybrids. 50% of even my driving would be electric in that case, and I would not hesitate to buy such a solution. Many commuters could easily get to 90+% electric with no loss,and maybe an improvement in convenience of the overall solution. But this car - not a chance.
You're probably right rhubarbs and IowaBeauty. But still, in a small country like my own this will probably be a good everyday utilitarian and if the price is good, people will buy it.
There is another reason Europeans will buy this car. We are heavilly taxed when buying a car and when buying gas for environmental reasons. The tax breaks on this one will mean a great, great incentive (if not half price, something similar).
Anyway, since the investment is from Renault-Nissan and the jobs and exports are ours, it's a win-win on our side.
You're probably right rhubarbs and IowaBeauty. But still, in a small country like my own this will probably be a good everyday utilitarian and if the price is good, people will buy it.
There is another reason Europeans will buy this car. We are heavilly taxed when buying a car and when buying gas for environmental reasons. The tax breaks on this one will mean a great, great incentive (if not half price, something similar).
Anyway, since the investment is from Renault-Nissan and the jobs and exports are ours, it's a win-win on our side.
Rhubarbs, you're an antisemite.
Rhubarbs, you're an antisemite.
Marty the question was, "Would you please exORcise your Israel superiority complex?"
Marty the question was, "Would you please exORcise your Israel superiority complex?"
"Rhubarbs, you're an antisemite."
Where does that come from? Ridicule of a European business plan that uses Israeli technology?
"Rhubarbs, you're an antisemite."
Where does that come from? Ridicule of a European business plan that uses Israeli technology?
Why all the gloomy predictions.
There a lot of small countries out there that could benefit from battery powered cars; and if the project will help free these small and medium size countries from its dependence on Saudi oil it will be worthwhile.
Is rhubarb is an oil industry lobbyist, or otherwise employed by a company linked to the sale of gasoline?
Why all the gloomy predictions.
There a lot of small countries out there that could benefit from battery powered cars; and if the project will help free these small and medium size countries from its dependence on Saudi oil it will be worthwhile.
Is rhubarb is an oil industry lobbyist, or otherwise employed by a company linked to the sale of gasoline?
A few of our readers may have forgotten that Mr. Peretz is already sufffering the limitations of econmoic travel in hiw Toyota Prius. As such the restricted range is not a worry.
I recently got an American V-8 Automobile and am loving it. Dodging the slower moving traffic that treats transportation as a burden rather than a moving feast.
Israel's battery swap idea is a clever solution and has some potential. However, it needs more development. Probably a redundant on-board battery that recharges nightly and the swappable battery to extend range. Permanent batteries can be tucked into places the replacable ones won't fit.
But maybe while Mr. Peretz is bragging about his grandchildren here ... view full comment
A few of our readers may have forgotten that Mr. Peretz is already sufffering the limitations of econmoic travel in hiw Toyota Prius. As such the restricted range is not a worry.
I recently got an American V-8 Automobile and am loving it. Dodging the slower moving traffic that treats transportation as a burden rather than a moving feast.
Israel's battery swap idea is a clever solution and has some potential. However, it needs more development. Probably a redundant on-board battery that recharges nightly and the swappable battery to extend range. Permanent batteries can be tucked into places the replacable ones won't fit.
But maybe while Mr. Peretz is bragging about his grandchildren here he is ignoring the news regarding the Prius and new technology in general. Today Toyota is recalling the Prius for Braking issues when switching between regenerating braking and hydraulic standard braking. Technology has risks.
I think that NHTSA is out of control with the Toyota recalls. How can you develop new technology when every mistake is a billion dollar recall? Maybe the Israeli option is better.
The truth is that Warren Buffett investing a couple hundred million dollars in a Chinese Car Company that makes Cell Phone Batteries. The Chinese will steal technology, use slave labor and the government will shield them from litigation. If the Israeli's can beat that, then they are on to something.
jhildner and jdyer, you've found me out. I am the personal secretary to HRH Prince Aziz Walid bin Talal al-Saud, PBUH, who as you know is the Saudi deputy minister of finance responsible for funding global anti-Semitism with petroleum profits.
As I mentioned, I think this is a perfectly feasible approach for Israel and other countries where auto trips are geographically constrained to very small areas. Plenty of islands, too, may benefit from such a system. And if this approach brings post-carbon transport online faster than otherwise even in a few places, that's a win for everyone. But neither this specific approach, nor the concept behind it, is even remotely plausible for the United State ... view full comment
jhildner and jdyer, you've found me out. I am the personal secretary to HRH Prince Aziz Walid bin Talal al-Saud, PBUH, who as you know is the Saudi deputy minister of finance responsible for funding global anti-Semitism with petroleum profits.
As I mentioned, I think this is a perfectly feasible approach for Israel and other countries where auto trips are geographically constrained to very small areas. Plenty of islands, too, may benefit from such a system. And if this approach brings post-carbon transport online faster than otherwise even in a few places, that's a win for everyone. But neither this specific approach, nor the concept behind it, is even remotely plausible for the United States or most other nations. Electric transport will have to come to market with a different configuration here, whether that's batteries large enough to offer 400-mile range (by definition too large even to consider drive-through battery replacement rather than recharge) or fuel cells. The fully electric car can't come fast enough - even setting aside the environmental and political imperatives of reducing our use of oil, particularly Arab oil, a well-designed electric drivetrain offers immensely superior performance compared to internal combustion. If I could afford a Tesla Roadster, I'd buy one in an instant to replace my little gasoline two-seater for the acceleration and handling alone. Reducing Saudi oil profits? Icing on the cake.
rhubarbs
"As I mentioned, I think this is a perfectly feasible approach for Israel and other countries where auto trips are geographically constrained to very small areas. Plenty of islands, too, may benefit from such a system. And if this approach brings post-carbon transport online faster than otherwise even in a few places, that's a win for everyone."
This is true, but the tone is different from what that you deployed above.
"But neither this specific approach, nor the concept behind it, is even remotely plausible for the United State ..."
I disagree.
Most motorists don't drive coast to coast; and while drives in the mid and far west with it's long open spaces would not benefit from s ... view full comment
rhubarbs
"As I mentioned, I think this is a perfectly feasible approach for Israel and other countries where auto trips are geographically constrained to very small areas. Plenty of islands, too, may benefit from such a system. And if this approach brings post-carbon transport online faster than otherwise even in a few places, that's a win for everyone."
This is true, but the tone is different from what that you deployed above.
"But neither this specific approach, nor the concept behind it, is even remotely plausible for the United State ..."
I disagree.
Most motorists don't drive coast to coast; and while drives in the mid and far west with it's long open spaces would not benefit from such an approach, local drives, say in Rhode Island or many urban or suburban areas could use battery powered cars.
Moreover the very existence of countries (and areas within larger countries) using such technology will be an incentive to further research and implementation of these transportation systems.
Today the notion is that the gasoline powered automobile is the gold standard and any deviation is merely a poor imitation. If nothing else a successful experiment in a battery powered system would challenge this view.
jdyer, of course you're right that most Americans don't drive coast to coast. But the average American drives about 35 miles per day, and the ironic thing is that people in the vast expanses of the American middle actually drive fewer miles, on average, than Americans in the denser coastal cities. (It's easier to arrange your life so as to minimize commute and errand distances in Omaha than in Providence, thanks largely to lower real estate costs in less-populated cities. And thus the battery-swap car is less plausible in Rhode Island than in Nebraska. Counterintuitive, but true.) Since the advertised battery life of 99 miles will never be achieved in practice - such marketing claims never a ... view full comment
jdyer, of course you're right that most Americans don't drive coast to coast. But the average American drives about 35 miles per day, and the ironic thing is that people in the vast expanses of the American middle actually drive fewer miles, on average, than Americans in the denser coastal cities. (It's easier to arrange your life so as to minimize commute and errand distances in Omaha than in Providence, thanks largely to lower real estate costs in less-populated cities. And thus the battery-swap car is less plausible in Rhode Island than in Nebraska. Counterintuitive, but true.) Since the advertised battery life of 99 miles will never be achieved in practice - such marketing claims never are - the average American really would need to swap his battery with a frequency that is simply staggeringly beyond the annoyance threshold anyone will accept. Beyond a few limited applications such as geographically isolated government or corporate fleets, certain limited-range taxicab services, and Caribbean and Pacific island territories, the model of battery-swap electric cannot stand up to even the simplest application of empirical analysis.
But if this approach to electric cars is a good solution even for a few countries or limited applications (such as, say, urban Post Office trucks), then one benefit of its deployment there will be helping to bring down production costs of components needed for the forms of electric transport that can work here. Another benefit may be helping to push forward battery capacity, since even in Israel having to wait in line and drive through a giant battery-swapping chamber every 60-70 miles will be nobody's idea of a happy journey. Double the capacity of the batteries over a couple of production lifecycles of this technology and the rest of the world may gain increased range on non-swappable battery vehicles sufficient to clear the American consumer's threshold of automotive range (often estimated to be about 400 miles per charge) at a price that's competitive with similar internal-combustion models.
The battery-swap electric car is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing, if it really offers Israel and/or Denmark or Fiji or wherever the chance to leapfrog into a fully-electric automotive future. But Marty's dream of seeing fleets of Israeli electric cars on the streets of Cambridge is purest fantasy.
I am skeptical that the "A Better Place" car will really take off in Israel. Personally, I commute around 50-60 KM (round trip) per day, and unless the parking garage in the building in which I work installed charging posts (as opposed to battery swap stations) and / or the town of Efrat installed charging posts on my street, then I don't see the car as very practical.
According to Agassi's plan, charging posts are supposed to be installed in garages & streets but unless he installed posts (for example) near many if not most if not all parking spots in my building's garage, how does he guaranty that I will find a parking spot in the garage near a charging post? If I can't ... view full comment
I am skeptical that the "A Better Place" car will really take off in Israel. Personally, I commute around 50-60 KM (round trip) per day, and unless the parking garage in the building in which I work installed charging posts (as opposed to battery swap stations) and / or the town of Efrat installed charging posts on my street, then I don't see the car as very practical.
According to Agassi's plan, charging posts are supposed to be installed in garages & streets but unless he installed posts (for example) near many if not most if not all parking spots in my building's garage, how does he guaranty that I will find a parking spot in the garage near a charging post? If I can't be assured that I'll be able to recharge the car while I am at work, then I won't want to take the chance to depend on the car for transportation.
Even then, at most I might see it as reasonable choice for a second car -- which I DON'T have now (we did when we lived in the USA). Indeed relatively few Israeli families do have two cars.
And again as I mentioned in my post above, the 160 KM range / charge is good (I believe) only under optimal driving conditions and possibly without A/C. The road between Efrat & Jerusalem goes up and down hills; Jerusalem itself is very hilly. As I understand it, this cuts down on the effective range of the batteries.
hg
Well, I'll withhold judgment till next year.
Hope you guys are wrong, though.
Well, I'll withhold judgment till next year.
Hope you guys are wrong, though.
"Soon the world will be full of these cars..."
Maybe the name of the first model should be the Shabtai Zvi.
"Soon the world will be full of these cars..."
Maybe the name of the first model should be the Shabtai Zvi.
"Maybe the name of the first model should be the Shabtai Zvi."
Or maybe (pick your favorite false messiah).
hg
"Maybe the name of the first model should be the Shabtai Zvi."
Or maybe (pick your favorite false messiah).
hg
Rhubes, one problem with your argument -- in addition to its blatantly antisemitic motivation -- is that these cars can be charged at home, such that, no, you don't have to swap out the battery every 100, or 70, miles. The problem is for long trips or city-dwellers who don't have access to an outlet, where I agree that the frequency of swapping would make things irritating. One solution to the long trip problem would be to design the car to hold different size batteries, with the largest battery allowing a trip of about 200-250 miles before you need a swap or a charge. With swapping, you could pay a premium to use such a battery for an anticipated long trip.
Rhubes, one problem with your argument -- in addition to its blatantly antisemitic motivation -- is that these cars can be charged at home, such that, no, you don't have to swap out the battery every 100, or 70, miles. The problem is for long trips or city-dwellers who don't have access to an outlet, where I agree that the frequency of swapping would make things irritating. One solution to the long trip problem would be to design the car to hold different size batteries, with the largest battery allowing a trip of about 200-250 miles before you need a swap or a charge. With swapping, you could pay a premium to use such a battery for an anticipated long trip.
jhildner1,
A couple of corrections on your post regarding the "A Better Place" vehicle:
a) The battery that is in there has been pushed to the maximum given current technology, and that battery is already hugely expensive (currently $10,000 a pop). In other words, 160 KM (under optimal driving conditions) is the current possible max distance -- there is NO battery option for 200-250 miles (320-400 KM) unless you want to give up on seats, trunk, etc.
b) I don't believe the batteries can be charged from a home outlet. Based on what has been publicized here (including pictures), the ABP vehicle seems to require non-standard cable, connector, and electricity. It also seems to be part of their ... view full comment
jhildner1,
A couple of corrections on your post regarding the "A Better Place" vehicle:
a) The battery that is in there has been pushed to the maximum given current technology, and that battery is already hugely expensive (currently $10,000 a pop). In other words, 160 KM (under optimal driving conditions) is the current possible max distance -- there is NO battery option for 200-250 miles (320-400 KM) unless you want to give up on seats, trunk, etc.
b) I don't believe the batteries can be charged from a home outlet. Based on what has been publicized here (including pictures), the ABP vehicle seems to require non-standard cable, connector, and electricity. It also seems to be part of their business model. Hence the need for dedicated, properly configured charging posts.
Hershel Ginsburg
Efrata / Jerusalem
gurwia
""Soon the world will be full of these cars..."
Maybe the name of the first model should be the Shabtai Zvi."
A limited battery is the same as a fake messiah?
I wasn't aware that Shabtai Zvi was concerned with batteries or with local transportation.
Messainism is getting dumbed down, isn't it?
gurwia
""Soon the world will be full of these cars..."
Maybe the name of the first model should be the Shabtai Zvi."
A limited battery is the same as a fake messiah?
I wasn't aware that Shabtai Zvi was concerned with batteries or with local transportation.
Messainism is getting dumbed down, isn't it?