The contagion of denial is just about over. I got a sense of that when I read an editorial in the usually self-deceiving Boston Globe enumerating the multiple symptoms of Islamic fanaticism that Major Nidal Malik Hasan--a psychiatrist, no less, licensed to help others mentally afflicted--had exhibited over several years and that military superiors simply ignored. The Globe puts the question quite fairly: was the failure "to take action against a Muslim," crazed though he was, inhibited by the U.S. leadership's fear that it would be seen to be acting against his religion rather than against his terrorism.
The simple fact is that virtually throughout the orbit of Islam there are strains of affinity for religious and political murder. I hope not more than strains. There are also strains of hostility and even of revulsion. But a truth is a truth and, ugly as it may be, it should not be denied. There is peril in denial. As clearly there was enormous peril in the passivity with which Hasan's passions were met.
The Associated Press reported today that the president has ordered a no-holds-barred investigation into the handling of the intelligence that had accumulated about Hasan ... and that had been ignored. There should also be inquiries that delve beneath the surface of what the F.B.I. and military sleuths did happen to know and of why they did not move.
Almost simultaneously with the Hasan murders in Fort Hood, the police announced that another murderer was arrested in the West Bank. His name is Ya'acov "Jake" Teitel who, born in Florida, lived with his wife and children in an Israeli settlement. He was charged with killing two Palestinians, injuring one of the most eminent historians at the Hebrew University, wreaking mayhem on a messianic Christian family, altogether committing at least 14 violent acts over a decade. After his apprehension by the police, the community in which he lived, Shvuat Rachel, distanced themselves from his acts and uttered what some might see as a denunciation. I'm not sure at all. But Israel itself knows the truth and it has spoken the truth, which is that Teitel is a terrorist. Fortunately, Israel doesn't have many Joe Kleins who would deny what is so palpably so.
Yes, Teitel is also a nut case. Like Hasan. Of course. He is also a terrorist, and Jewry is shamed by his life. This is what Teitel said in his first appearance in court: "It was my pleasure and honor to serve God. God is proud of what I have done. I have no regrets." Allah Akhbar!
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COMMENTS (33)
"Yes, Teitel is also a nut case. Like Hasan. Of course. He is also a terrorist, and Jewry is shamed by his life. This is what Teitel said in his first appearance in court: "It was my pleasure and honor to serve God. God is proud of what I have done. I have no regrets." Allah Akhbar!"
Any bets on when Tetel will turn Muslim like the false messiah Shabbtai Tzvi?
"Yes, Teitel is also a nut case. Like Hasan. Of course. He is also a terrorist, and Jewry is shamed by his life. This is what Teitel said in his first appearance in court: "It was my pleasure and honor to serve God. God is proud of what I have done. I have no regrets." Allah Akhbar!"
Any bets on when Tetel will turn Muslim like the false messiah Shabbtai Tzvi?
More on Teitel:
"Teitel has confessed to carrying out other attacks on policemen in retaliation for the police protection granted the Gay Pride Parade in Jerusalem in 2006: He planted an improvised explosive device in a police station in the settlement of Eli and also blew up bombs near two police patrol cars in Jerusalem.
A psychiatrist examined Teitel on Tuesday and pronounced him sane. However, the evaluation found that he did have schizoid traits - extreme disinterest in social ties, coldness and solitariness. He will be examined by another psychiatrist tomorrow, this time one hired by the defense rather than the state.
Also Tuesday, the Shin Bet detained Yosef Espinoza, 51, on suspicion ... view full comment
More on Teitel:
"Teitel has confessed to carrying out other attacks on policemen in retaliation for the police protection granted the Gay Pride Parade in Jerusalem in 2006: He planted an improvised explosive device in a police station in the settlement of Eli and also blew up bombs near two police patrol cars in Jerusalem.
A psychiatrist examined Teitel on Tuesday and pronounced him sane. However, the evaluation found that he did have schizoid traits - extreme disinterest in social ties, coldness and solitariness. He will be examined by another psychiatrist tomorrow, this time one hired by the defense rather than the state.
Also Tuesday, the Shin Bet detained Yosef Espinoza, 51, on suspicion of involvement in Teitel's crimes. Espinoza, like Teitel, is an American immigrant who lives in the settlement of Shvut Rachel, and he is known as Teitel's best friend.
However, it is not yet clear what exactly Espinoza is suspected of: He has already been arrested once, 10 days ago, and then released."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1125698.html
"The contagion of denial is just about over." I did not perceive a "contagion of denial." Rather, there was an insistence that the facts be gathered before conclusions were drawn. The fact that certain suspicions -- that Hasan was motivated at least in part by religious fanatacism -- are being confirmed does not mean that jumping to conclusions was justified, any more than hanging someone without a trial would be justified by a post-hanging trial and conviction.
"The contagion of denial is just about over." I did not perceive a "contagion of denial." Rather, there was an insistence that the facts be gathered before conclusions were drawn. The fact that certain suspicions -- that Hasan was motivated at least in part by religious fanatacism -- are being confirmed does not mean that jumping to conclusions was justified, any more than hanging someone without a trial would be justified by a post-hanging trial and conviction.
..."The contagion of denial is just about over." I did not perceive a "contagion of denial." Rather, there was an insistence that the facts be gathered before conclusions were drawn. The fact that certain suspicions -- that Hasan was motivated at least in part by religious fanatacism -- are being confirmed does not mean that jumping to conclusions was justified, any more than hanging someone without a trial would be justified by a post-hanging trial and conviction...
I essentially agree with this comment save to offer one (politically incorrect) amendment: there were as many ready to exonerate Hasan before the fact as there were those ready to damn him before the fact.
..."The contagion of denial is just about over." I did not perceive a "contagion of denial." Rather, there was an insistence that the facts be gathered before conclusions were drawn. The fact that certain suspicions -- that Hasan was motivated at least in part by religious fanatacism -- are being confirmed does not mean that jumping to conclusions was justified, any more than hanging someone without a trial would be justified by a post-hanging trial and conviction...
I essentially agree with this comment save to offer one (politically incorrect) amendment: there were as many ready to exonerate Hasan before the fact as there were those ready to damn him before the fact.
Really? There was a rush to exonerate Hasan? I missed that somehow.
Really? There was a rush to exonerate Hasan? I missed that somehow.
...There was a rush to exonerate Hasan? ...
I misspoke: not "exonerate"--too much wine for dinner--rather, to explain him away.
...There was a rush to exonerate Hasan? ...
I misspoke: not "exonerate"--too much wine for dinner--rather, to explain him away.
second thought, even with Masi Amarone still affecting my brain:
exonerate--"to relieve of a responsibility, obligation, or hardship"--yeah, in this sense, on second thought, "exonerate", by trying to explain him away.
second thought, even with Masi Amarone still affecting my brain:
exonerate--"to relieve of a responsibility, obligation, or hardship"--yeah, in this sense, on second thought, "exonerate", by trying to explain him away.
Right, but what I heard and read was an insistence that we should not assume Hasan is a jihadist rather than a psychopath. I did not hear anyone claim the reverse -- that Hasan is insane and not a jihadist. Much less did I hear anyone claim that Hasan should be relieved of responsibility for his actions.
Right, but what I heard and read was an insistence that we should not assume Hasan is a jihadist rather than a psychopath. I did not hear anyone claim the reverse -- that Hasan is insane and not a jihadist. Much less did I hear anyone claim that Hasan should be relieved of responsibility for his actions.
Well, I heard plenty of comment--and thought I saw it argued around here too-- and plenty of reports on commentary that Hasan's actions and his ideology were assimilable to his "craziness", itself manifest in his "snapping" due to stress attributable to a variety of "understandable" causes--pre or post traumatic stress, the harassment of him because he was a Muslim and others--such that he was a lone, crazed nut, a Charles Whitman. His insanity, then, as I say the argument would go, trumps his beliefs and cuts the causal nexus between those beliefs and his actions, and provide an arguable basis for his moral exculpation.
No?
Well, I heard plenty of comment--and thought I saw it argued around here too-- and plenty of reports on commentary that Hasan's actions and his ideology were assimilable to his "craziness", itself manifest in his "snapping" due to stress attributable to a variety of "understandable" causes--pre or post traumatic stress, the harassment of him because he was a Muslim and others--such that he was a lone, crazed nut, a Charles Whitman. His insanity, then, as I say the argument would go, trumps his beliefs and cuts the causal nexus between those beliefs and his actions, and provide an arguable basis for his moral exculpation.
No?
Later baby!
I'm going to sleep.
Later baby!
I'm going to sleep.
Espinoza has since been released, and for now appears to be off the hook.
The consensus view in Israel is that Shvut Rachel residents' distancing themselves from Teitel is genuine. The only caveat stated by some, which I assume that even MP will grudgingly accept (I assume he still holds basic civil liberties), is that Teitel is innocent until proven guilty and that they hope the court finds him innocent. His wife was totally stunned by the arrest and charges and indeed his wife's family made it clear that if he is found guilty as charged, they will have nothing to do with him.
Of note that Teitel wasn't just born in Florida; he grew up in the USA on a series of US Marine bases where he is t ... view full comment
Espinoza has since been released, and for now appears to be off the hook.
The consensus view in Israel is that Shvut Rachel residents' distancing themselves from Teitel is genuine. The only caveat stated by some, which I assume that even MP will grudgingly accept (I assume he still holds basic civil liberties), is that Teitel is innocent until proven guilty and that they hope the court finds him innocent. His wife was totally stunned by the arrest and charges and indeed his wife's family made it clear that if he is found guilty as charged, they will have nothing to do with him.
Of note that Teitel wasn't just born in Florida; he grew up in the USA on a series of US Marine bases where he is thought to have picked up some of his affinity to knowledge about weapons (his father was a dentist int he USMC but now lives in an ultra-orthodox (hareidi) city not far from Efrat). Indeed the first crime of which Teitel is accused was committed about 10-12 years ago while visiting Israel as a tourist. Somehow he managed to smuggle in a handgun in his luggage. Since then he accumulated a small arsenal of about 12 weapons, most or all of which were smuggled in from the USA in immigrants' shipping containers.
He's been living here for less than 10 years, speaks only a rudimentary Hebrew (TV reporters threw questions at him in English), and apparently was very much the loner in Shvut Rachel.
Jackson, I'll take you up on your bet (how about dinner at the Gush Etzion Winery, loser pays). I doubt highly that he'll convert to Islam. My guess is that he was not raised as an observant Jew, but came to religion later in life & combined that with what appears to be pre-existing extreme political views.
Have to run.
שבת שלום -- Shabbat Shalom
Hershel Ginsburg
Efrata / Jerusalem
In traditional Jewish society, Teitel is considered highly abnormal. For better or worse, brains/cleverness are favored over brawn. In Islam, Major Hasan is normal. Hasan merely carried out his religious duty to perform jihad. Teitel was a marginal unemployable loner picked up by the Israeli police. Little real Hebrew after 10 years in Israel? Although people can survive with English there, that amounts to a real disconnection from normal relationships there. Hasan, by contrast, held a respected position as a military psychiatrist trained at US taxpayers' expense. He was protected by his rank and by political correctness from challenge. Nobody in the US Army, of all places, stopped him befor ... view full comment
In traditional Jewish society, Teitel is considered highly abnormal. For better or worse, brains/cleverness are favored over brawn. In Islam, Major Hasan is normal. Hasan merely carried out his religious duty to perform jihad. Teitel was a marginal unemployable loner picked up by the Israeli police. Little real Hebrew after 10 years in Israel? Although people can survive with English there, that amounts to a real disconnection from normal relationships there. Hasan, by contrast, held a respected position as a military psychiatrist trained at US taxpayers' expense. He was protected by his rank and by political correctness from challenge. Nobody in the US Army, of all places, stopped him before he perpetrated his crime against other US military personnel. Is the US Army such an anomic place where loners can float around at will?
There's a big reluctance in this listserv and elsewhere to examine how Islamic scripture and culture encourage hatred and violence and an adversarial relationship to non-Islamic states and cultures. Can an orthodox Muslim be loyal to the US Constitution? Can he truly serve in an army that now happens to fight Muslims in historically Muslim lands? Hasan is not the first US Army Muslim to have gone postal on his "comrades"; there have been a few other such religiously-motivated incidents in recent years.
One may reasonably argue that there are many Muslim immigrants and offspring in the US who identify with Islam primarily out of filial piety and normal ethnic pride and that Islamic scriptures and fire-eating imams don't really influence their behavior much. Most Muslims don't speak Arabic, they read it by rote, so may have an inaccurate, tame, sentimentalized view of tradition. If so, we need to draw the line somewhere to determine where an American Muslim is taking Shariah too seriously. Major Hasan clearly crossed the line for quite a while before his crime.
We also need to look at how Saudi and Iranian money is fostering a militant re-Arabicized Islam in the US and other western countries. That and the easy availability of Middle-Eastern television channels in the US and elsewhere discourage assimilation into our society. I remember talking to a lonely young Egyptian gas station attendant (Coptic, not Muslim) one night while refueling my car. He casually referred to watching Al-Jazeera. Yes, immigrants rely on native-language media for information and emotional connection. But my Russian Jewish grandparents did not listen to Radio Moscow or Kol Yisrael. Nor did they have phone, satellite TV, or Internet contact with the "other side".
Teitel and his rabbi remind me of all those rabidos, anti racist anti war anti Zionist activists who act out their fantasies of persecution and "speaking truth to power". Or whatever.
Coming from New York is not exactly like fleeing pogrom-infected Russia in the late nineteenth century, or antisemitic Europe during the thirties, or murderous Arab regimes in the forties and fifties, is it?
How come they have the audacity to jeopardize and compromise Israelis for their delusional aspirations of Biblical prophecies?
Teitel and his rabbi remind me of all those rabidos, anti racist anti war anti Zionist activists who act out their fantasies of persecution and "speaking truth to power". Or whatever.
Coming from New York is not exactly like fleeing pogrom-infected Russia in the late nineteenth century, or antisemitic Europe during the thirties, or murderous Arab regimes in the forties and fifties, is it?
How come they have the audacity to jeopardize and compromise Israelis for their delusional aspirations of Biblical prophecies?
"Jackson, I'll take you up on your bet (how about dinner at the Gush Etzion Winery, loser pays). I doubt highly that he'll convert to Islam. My guess is that he was not raised as an observant Jew, but came to religion later in life & combined that with what appears to be pre-existing extreme political views."
Hershel, I was joking, though it would be a pleasure buying you dinner at the Gush Etzion Winery if I am ever there.
"Jackson, I'll take you up on your bet (how about dinner at the Gush Etzion Winery, loser pays). I doubt highly that he'll convert to Islam. My guess is that he was not raised as an observant Jew, but came to religion later in life & combined that with what appears to be pre-existing extreme political views."
Hershel, I was joking, though it would be a pleasure buying you dinner at the Gush Etzion Winery if I am ever there.
btw: re: Teitel
"He's been living here for less than 10 years, speaks only a rudimentary Hebrew (TV reporters threw questions at him in English), and apparently was very much the loner in Shvut Rachel."
Never trust a man or a woman who doesn't speak the language of the country he or she lives in, since it means that he is really not a part of the community, but still holds views that are more extreme than that of the natives speakers.
btw: re: Teitel
"He's been living here for less than 10 years, speaks only a rudimentary Hebrew (TV reporters threw questions at him in English), and apparently was very much the loner in Shvut Rachel."
Never trust a man or a woman who doesn't speak the language of the country he or she lives in, since it means that he is really not a part of the community, but still holds views that are more extreme than that of the natives speakers.
I say, " Make well with our Judeo-Christian DNA and admit that the larger issue begs fleshing out the definition of ' Guilty by Reason of Insanity'. I have a defense for such unfortunates but most won't approve. Least of all the accused.
The Judeo-Christian gist has always been an invitation to doubt and doubts at their very and most uncomfortable finest. Reaching for Truth, if you will, through convicted conscience. (Feel free to characterize the origins and directions at your pleasure.)
My reading of Islam is that it allows very little room for doubt primarily due to its warlike footing and specific instructions concerning the disposition of doubters (infidels).
Are we talking oil and water?
I say, " Make well with our Judeo-Christian DNA and admit that the larger issue begs fleshing out the definition of ' Guilty by Reason of Insanity'. I have a defense for such unfortunates but most won't approve. Least of all the accused.
The Judeo-Christian gist has always been an invitation to doubt and doubts at their very and most uncomfortable finest. Reaching for Truth, if you will, through convicted conscience. (Feel free to characterize the origins and directions at your pleasure.)
My reading of Islam is that it allows very little room for doubt primarily due to its warlike footing and specific instructions concerning the disposition of doubters (infidels).
Are we talking oil and water?
jackson, the haaretz snip you posted prompts reflecting on my many years' psych treatment (2 near-suicide attempts followed by hospitalization and intensive outpatient care, the more recent event taking eighteen months to adjust meds until I felt I was on track to recovery) and having for decades several closest who are top of their field clinical psychiatrists, with vast experience and expertise in depression and schizophrenia. While I am most certainly not any kind of expert or authority on any mental health related issue, but I have a mountain of data on a variety of clinical and practical topics related to treating patients with severe illness, and clinical outcomes.
(end of preamble)
Ass ... view full comment
jackson, the haaretz snip you posted prompts reflecting on my many years' psych treatment (2 near-suicide attempts followed by hospitalization and intensive outpatient care, the more recent event taking eighteen months to adjust meds until I felt I was on track to recovery) and having for decades several closest who are top of their field clinical psychiatrists, with vast experience and expertise in depression and schizophrenia. While I am most certainly not any kind of expert or authority on any mental health related issue, but I have a mountain of data on a variety of clinical and practical topics related to treating patients with severe illness, and clinical outcomes.
(end of preamble)
Assessing risk of an individual's likelihood to have committed a serious crime of which (s)he is alleged to have committed is essentially "a crap shoot" whether you are a dedicated forensic psychiatrist or not. It's just not possible and one's opinion is just as reliable as another's (and another's).
In other words, don't hold your breath for a valid conclusion. It won't be coming.
A very brave and helpful post Tgossard. I'm a clinical social worker - and a long time sufferer of clinical depression.
In my work with people with severe mental illness (schizophrenia, bi-polar, inpatient outpatient - the works) ramping up of religious fervor is often a red flag, no matter who it is. We take this very seriously, this particular behavior is as old and reliable a diagnostic tool as there is. Affect is important and other diagnostic tools as well. I hypothosize that Hassan was hypomanic (at minimum) for months before this event. It sure sounds like it, but I was not there of course. Just hyposthesizing using what I've read.
Religion is there in this story, but its also bein ... view full comment
A very brave and helpful post Tgossard. I'm a clinical social worker - and a long time sufferer of clinical depression.
In my work with people with severe mental illness (schizophrenia, bi-polar, inpatient outpatient - the works) ramping up of religious fervor is often a red flag, no matter who it is. We take this very seriously, this particular behavior is as old and reliable a diagnostic tool as there is. Affect is important and other diagnostic tools as well. I hypothosize that Hassan was hypomanic (at minimum) for months before this event. It sure sounds like it, but I was not there of course. Just hyposthesizing using what I've read.
Religion is there in this story, but its also being used for opportunistic Muslim bashing, while pointedly leaving out huge chunks of inconvenient reality. Just as religion cannot be credibly ignored as a factor, neither can the fact that the tragic strain on the mental heath resources of our armed services is also to blame.
Add our country's sick obsession with guns and voila: a devli's stew without a proper name. Terrorism is not precise enough.
Bless our military and government leaders for thier level headedness and decency in not partaking in reckless behavior during a national tragedy.
Obama's speech said everything that needed to be said in that regard. It was a blessing.
Another thought before I'm shut down. We're careful with our clients of Muslim faith with mental illness, they are easy targets for bad guys to do their filthy acts for them (the shoe bomber was no doubt targeted), really heroic.
We had the a federal agency interview one of our guys last year, I have a feeling that isn't uncommon. All of them were total gentlemen about it - client, agents. My client wants to help them and the agents were surprisingly knowledgable and humane. They are still welcome to say hello to my client whenever they like.
Ambiguity is hard, but precision in thinking is worth it.
Another thought before I'm shut down. We're careful with our clients of Muslim faith with mental illness, they are easy targets for bad guys to do their filthy acts for them (the shoe bomber was no doubt targeted), really heroic.
We had the a federal agency interview one of our guys last year, I have a feeling that isn't uncommon. All of them were total gentlemen about it - client, agents. My client wants to help them and the agents were surprisingly knowledgable and humane. They are still welcome to say hello to my client whenever they like.
Ambiguity is hard, but precision in thinking is worth it.
Agreed Wandrey. Basman, there was plenty of speculation about factors other than religious fanaticism that might have led to Hasan's actions, but I did not hear any definitive claims to that effect. If there was, then I agree that they are just as objectionable as having prematurely concluded that religious fanaticism was the cause.
Amidut says: "In Islam, Major Hasan is normal. Hasan merely carried out his religious duty to perform jihad." So, apparently, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who are apostates.
Agreed Wandrey. Basman, there was plenty of speculation about factors other than religious fanaticism that might have led to Hasan's actions, but I did not hear any definitive claims to that effect. If there was, then I agree that they are just as objectionable as having prematurely concluded that religious fanaticism was the cause.
Amidut says: "In Islam, Major Hasan is normal. Hasan merely carried out his religious duty to perform jihad." So, apparently, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who are apostates.
"He's been living here for less than 10 years, speaks only a rudimentary Hebrew (TV reporters threw questions at him in English), and apparently was very much the loner in Shvut Rachel."
Never trust a man or a woman who doesn't speak the language of the country he or she lives in, since it means that he is really not a part of the community, but still holds views that are more extreme than that of the natives speakers."
I dunno, I kind of take exception to that, at least the trust part. I am not sure what you mean by extreme. I am sure there are a fair amount of elderly Cubans who have terrible English yet are also very strongly Republican. I am not sure that makes them untrustworthy.
Now ... view full comment
"He's been living here for less than 10 years, speaks only a rudimentary Hebrew (TV reporters threw questions at him in English), and apparently was very much the loner in Shvut Rachel."
Never trust a man or a woman who doesn't speak the language of the country he or she lives in, since it means that he is really not a part of the community, but still holds views that are more extreme than that of the natives speakers."
I dunno, I kind of take exception to that, at least the trust part. I am not sure what you mean by extreme. I am sure there are a fair amount of elderly Cubans who have terrible English yet are also very strongly Republican. I am not sure that makes them untrustworthy.
Now if you are saying his extremism is Religious, I agree with your point. But if it is ethnic, if he viewed Israel as a refuge for Jewish people then I wouldn't hold his lack of Hebrew against him, as I imagine there are probably a fair amount of Russian jews who might be fervently pro-Israel without being untrustworthy. And a little edit of your sentence if I might. "but still holds views that are more extreme than that of the extremists who are natives speakers."
I know it wasn't your intent, but that sentence kind of implied that native speakers are by their nature extremist.
I agree with WandreyCer,Tgossard, your was a brave and hopeful post. Thanks.
I agree with WandreyCer,Tgossard, your was a brave and hopeful post. Thanks.
I tell you, sometimes it feels like communicating with someone as ideologically and psychologically blinkered as peretz is useless. On these boards, I do not recall anyone saying that Hassan wasn't guilty or engaging in a "contagion of denial" about anything. What I saw, even from the papers that the old grudgeholder cites, is a reluctance to immediately jump to conclusions about the facts before we knew them, unlike what the Editor in Chief did within hours of the event. The event was enormous and on a tragic national scale. It required some responsible and sober assessment, not slobbering, knee jerk reactions that bordered on a perverse sense of near glee as was evidenced by "some".
N ... view full comment
I tell you, sometimes it feels like communicating with someone as ideologically and psychologically blinkered as peretz is useless. On these boards, I do not recall anyone saying that Hassan wasn't guilty or engaging in a "contagion of denial" about anything. What I saw, even from the papers that the old grudgeholder cites, is a reluctance to immediately jump to conclusions about the facts before we knew them, unlike what the Editor in Chief did within hours of the event. The event was enormous and on a tragic national scale. It required some responsible and sober assessment, not slobbering, knee jerk reactions that bordered on a perverse sense of near glee as was evidenced by "some".
Now, after some preliminary investigation, it does appear that this Hassan guy was likely motivated by a religious animus and motive. These events unfortunately happen and they cause pain, suffering and death. It is simply unseemly and distasteful to read that for some, it is used to validate their particular pov about Muslims. That is what I sensed from peretz and that is why I continue to believe that this guy is simply not a responsible enough or mature and balanced enough to report about anything that deals with serious, tragic national issues.
blackton
"I dunno, I kind of take exception to that, at least the trust part. I am not sure what you mean by extreme. I am sure there are a fair amount of elderly Cubans who have terrible English yet are also very strongly Republican. I am not sure that makes them untrustworthy."
I too can understand why a Cuban refugee would have preferred Republican to Democrats. Still, Republicans are not the kind of extremists I had in mind.
Perhaps I should have said, to coin a phrase, never trust those who are ‘plus royaliste que le roi,’
or ‘more Catholic than the Pope.’
blackton
"I dunno, I kind of take exception to that, at least the trust part. I am not sure what you mean by extreme. I am sure there are a fair amount of elderly Cubans who have terrible English yet are also very strongly Republican. I am not sure that makes them untrustworthy."
I too can understand why a Cuban refugee would have preferred Republican to Democrats. Still, Republicans are not the kind of extremists I had in mind.
Perhaps I should have said, to coin a phrase, never trust those who are ‘plus royaliste que le roi,’
or ‘more Catholic than the Pope.’
I sympathize with all those who have suffered severe mental illness and pain.
If Major Dr. Hasan was borderline, why wasn't he sidelined? He was frequently observed by clinically-knowledgeable psychological professionals.
Regarding whether Hasan's behavior was Islamically normal, their prophet Mohamed is considered the The Perfect Man, one to be emulated by all Muslims. Yet the Koran and other Islamic literature described all kinds of psychotic behavior by the Prophet as he raped and murdered his way across Arabia in the 7th century. According to tradition, in his dying words, he ordained that no Jews and Christians should be left in the peninsula.
I sympathize with all those who have suffered severe mental illness and pain.
If Major Dr. Hasan was borderline, why wasn't he sidelined? He was frequently observed by clinically-knowledgeable psychological professionals.
Regarding whether Hasan's behavior was Islamically normal, their prophet Mohamed is considered the The Perfect Man, one to be emulated by all Muslims. Yet the Koran and other Islamic literature described all kinds of psychotic behavior by the Prophet as he raped and murdered his way across Arabia in the 7th century. According to tradition, in his dying words, he ordained that no Jews and Christians should be left in the peninsula.
"He was frequently observed by clinically-knowledgeable psychological professionals."
I have no doubt in my mind that this is not a true statement. Observed over coffee in the mess maybe, but observed clinicially? From what I've read the opposite is true. As someone in the field, I can tell you - no one ever observes us clinically. We're supposed to be supervised yes, but rarely are even in the best of circumstances. Needless to say, these doctors are not in the best of circumstances in terms of time or resources.
We ignore the major lesson in this, to my mind, at our own peril: the vicarious traumatization expereince by psychiatrsists and oher mental health professionals in the armed se ... view full comment
"He was frequently observed by clinically-knowledgeable psychological professionals."
I have no doubt in my mind that this is not a true statement. Observed over coffee in the mess maybe, but observed clinicially? From what I've read the opposite is true. As someone in the field, I can tell you - no one ever observes us clinically. We're supposed to be supervised yes, but rarely are even in the best of circumstances. Needless to say, these doctors are not in the best of circumstances in terms of time or resources.
We ignore the major lesson in this, to my mind, at our own peril: the vicarious traumatization expereince by psychiatrsists and oher mental health professionals in the armed services (under 500 for all services, hundreds of thousands of people) is dangerous. And I'd go so far as to say we have a national emergency on our hands with the mental health of vets.
My gruesome prediction is next quarter, the ouzi slaughter will be done in the name of some other fanatical cause. Last quarter it was women hating as I recall.
And BTW - I was raised by atheists with a sincere affection for the bible as literature and history but not much else, so I know many folks here won't find me a credible source on religion, I'll agree there. I'll just say I have yet to read a more violent, vindictive, murderous, gory document than the Old Testament - if read literally of course.
WandreyCer said:
"And I'd go so far as to say we have a national emergency on our hands with the mental health of vets."
This issue has been raised with great emphasis again recently by many clinicians and veterans affairs officials close to the system. Critical mass has nigh been attained.
As to the Bible's (and the Koran's for that matter) violent content, it occurs to me that the great mytho-historic compilations revered and taught by oppressed religious minorities and their leaders would surely make a point of inventing, emphasizing, even exaggerating, trauma and supernatural vindication and violent redress. If you believe in reality that your cause may hopeless, and constantly in need o bu ... view full comment
WandreyCer said:
"And I'd go so far as to say we have a national emergency on our hands with the mental health of vets."
This issue has been raised with great emphasis again recently by many clinicians and veterans affairs officials close to the system. Critical mass has nigh been attained.
As to the Bible's (and the Koran's for that matter) violent content, it occurs to me that the great mytho-historic compilations revered and taught by oppressed religious minorities and their leaders would surely make a point of inventing, emphasizing, even exaggerating, trauma and supernatural vindication and violent redress. If you believe in reality that your cause may hopeless, and constantly in need o bucking up when things are at their worst, you book your best stories and recollections to sustain and strengthen your resolve.
Muslims have rarely been an oppressed minority, so their narrative was not intended to compensate for that. Islam, unlike Christianity, was an instant geo-political success. Mohammed conquered all of Arabia in his lifetime. Within 100 years, Islam spread by conquest across the Middle East (Iran by 650!), North Africa, and Spain (by 718!). They had developed the perfect machine for unapologetic conquest and rule over non-Muslims. They have never been ambivalent about conquest, unlike many modern-day Christians and Jews.
While I respect thoughtful atheism, I think that religion of the "Abrahamic" variety will always be with us because many people need it. I see the Bible as a story of the evol ... view full comment
Muslims have rarely been an oppressed minority, so their narrative was not intended to compensate for that. Islam, unlike Christianity, was an instant geo-political success. Mohammed conquered all of Arabia in his lifetime. Within 100 years, Islam spread by conquest across the Middle East (Iran by 650!), North Africa, and Spain (by 718!). They had developed the perfect machine for unapologetic conquest and rule over non-Muslims. They have never been ambivalent about conquest, unlike many modern-day Christians and Jews.
While I respect thoughtful atheism, I think that religion of the "Abrahamic" variety will always be with us because many people need it. I see the Bible as a story of the evolving religious consciousness of a particular people. Few interpret it literally today. But in Islam, the Koran is still considered the immutable word of Allah, Mohamed is the perfect man and that is the state religion of two wealthy, powerful petro-states bent on religious conquest: Iran and Saudi Arabia. One does not argue with Allah or speak intimately with Him. In the Bible, the protagonists often conversed and argued with God.
Wandrey:
"I'll just say I have yet to read a more violent, vindictive, murderous, gory document than the Old Testament - if read literally of course."
That is essentially accurate Wandrey. But the point will be lost on Marty and his sycophants. They will parse the texts of the Old Testament and the Koran, and argue that the encouragement to violence in the Koran is WORSE. Therefore, they will conclude, Christianity and Judaism are relatively virtuous, whereas Islam is evil.
Wandrey:
"I'll just say I have yet to read a more violent, vindictive, murderous, gory document than the Old Testament - if read literally of course."
That is essentially accurate Wandrey. But the point will be lost on Marty and his sycophants. They will parse the texts of the Old Testament and the Koran, and argue that the encouragement to violence in the Koran is WORSE. Therefore, they will conclude, Christianity and Judaism are relatively virtuous, whereas Islam is evil.
Do you see what I mean Wandrey? Amidut joins others in attempting to draw distinctions between Islam and "Abrahamic" religion that he apparently believes justify anti-Muslim sentiment. It is certainly true that Judeo-Christian countries have become more secularized than have predominantly Muslim countries. But there are plenty of fundamentalist Christians who believe that both the Old and New Testament are the immutable word of God, that it is to be interpreted literally, and that Jesus Christ was a perfect man who is either God or the Son of God. And of course there was the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the persecution of "heretics," including people like Copernicus and Galileo. So mu ... view full comment
Do you see what I mean Wandrey? Amidut joins others in attempting to draw distinctions between Islam and "Abrahamic" religion that he apparently believes justify anti-Muslim sentiment. It is certainly true that Judeo-Christian countries have become more secularized than have predominantly Muslim countries. But there are plenty of fundamentalist Christians who believe that both the Old and New Testament are the immutable word of God, that it is to be interpreted literally, and that Jesus Christ was a perfect man who is either God or the Son of God. And of course there was the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the persecution of "heretics," including people like Copernicus and Galileo. So much for arguing with God.
Good thoughts, amidut, thanks. I believe the origins of religion were in pre-history, religiosity itself a hallmark of what it means to be human (humane). Too often, religions are thought to be like historical epochs, deeds the measure of what a particular religion is about. While that is not an invalid way to think about religion, there are other ways that say more about the durability of a religion through history - it's staying power. That comes not from a linear history or list of tenets and doctrines so much as an examination of its teachings/methodologies for individuals and communities to attain right consciousness, stability, interdependence, and wisdom.
Good thoughts, amidut, thanks. I believe the origins of religion were in pre-history, religiosity itself a hallmark of what it means to be human (humane). Too often, religions are thought to be like historical epochs, deeds the measure of what a particular religion is about. While that is not an invalid way to think about religion, there are other ways that say more about the durability of a religion through history - it's staying power. That comes not from a linear history or list of tenets and doctrines so much as an examination of its teachings/methodologies for individuals and communities to attain right consciousness, stability, interdependence, and wisdom.
Great posts Tgossard - very learned, staying power matters doesn't it?
I think I'm more like Mom, who eventually became a very religious, progressive Presbyterian lady, feeds the homeless, marches for immigrants - the works. Atheism didn't suit her and it doesn't suit me either. But I'm an old ornery hippy feminist (sorta) and I'm wary of Western metaphysics in general. Virgin birth indeed.
Anyway, Dhurtado - Amidut's posts make me highly uncomfortable, and I don't think its much of a mystery what I usually think of Marty. I don't attack religions, period. It is a fools game, anyone who does it looks stupid quickly. A cursory look at history damns any religion if you are so inclined. ... view full comment
Great posts Tgossard - very learned, staying power matters doesn't it?
I think I'm more like Mom, who eventually became a very religious, progressive Presbyterian lady, feeds the homeless, marches for immigrants - the works. Atheism didn't suit her and it doesn't suit me either. But I'm an old ornery hippy feminist (sorta) and I'm wary of Western metaphysics in general. Virgin birth indeed.
Anyway, Dhurtado - Amidut's posts make me highly uncomfortable, and I don't think its much of a mystery what I usually think of Marty. I don't attack religions, period. It is a fools game, anyone who does it looks stupid quickly. A cursory look at history damns any religion if you are so inclined. And I am not.
It seems like religions take turns going mad, or being used as a conduit for madness.
Both the Jewish and Christian trajectory contain the not too subtle implied command to read between the lines. I can find nothing similar in the Koran. It is a very much much what you see it what you get kind of construction. To pretend that this difference is negligible and relative is wishful thinking.
Both the Jewish and Christian trajectory contain the not too subtle implied command to read between the lines. I can find nothing similar in the Koran. It is a very much much what you see it what you get kind of construction. To pretend that this difference is negligible and relative is wishful thinking.